Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpcvlx!jbb
From: jbb@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Jim B. Byers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Re: Questions about HPUX 8.0, X11R4, HP policy
Message-ID: <101950173@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com>
Date: 18 Dec 90 02:44:25 GMT
References: <1990Dec13.100152@dali.gatech.edu>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Lines: 101


OK, now we are getting somewhere.  I understand you to be saying
the following things.

1)  You are using an HP-UX machine.
2)  Do not have a support contract because your organization decided
    not to.
3)  You have only had access to the net for the past quarter.
4)  You have need for some X11 based programs that you have seen.
    Someone on your site compiled them for another machine, but not for
    HP-UX.
5)  You would be willing to compile them if you have to. (It is assumed
    that you would prefer a binary.
6)  You need the Athena widgets to compile these it.  You want these to
    be shipped as part of HP-UX.  If you were on support you would expect
    us to bug fix these and work with you on work arounds etc.
7)  You also need a copy of GKS.  I take this to mean the xgks stuff
    found in the contrib section of the MIT tape under 
    contrib/libraries/xgks
8)  You cannot install the MIT tape and build what you want due to space
    constraints.
9)  You are angry and are letting us know.

Lets cover these.

 
Re: 4)  You have some X11 programs that you want to use.  These are
applications that you have seen, that may be available as source.  I 
understand these to be PD rather than purchased applications.  I still
am not sure what these are.  In the past requests for such binaries have
been fulfilled by the net.  Someone took the time to compile them for
use on another system on your site.  Other sites across the country 
probably have compiled them for HP-UX.  Give the net a try.  No vendor
will ever provide every PD application that is passed around on the net.  Why would they, they
Why would they?  They are passed around quite efficiently on the net :-).


Re: 5)  The obvious problem here is obtaining the right patches etc. to
the MIT tape.  I know you have a great faith in the MIT tape software
(even in the contrib) section but it is software whose major goal is
features not stable code.  This is not to say that the contributors,
HP included, do not strive for good code.  My point is that this is the
first time that much of this code has seen the light of day.

Re: 6)  I would recommend that you consider ftp-ing the libraries from
hpcvaaz as Harry describes in his response.  You would prefer that
these were included in HP-UX.  This is a tough one.  We wrestled with
this one when the Athena widgets first came out (R2).As you mentioned
people would expect us to support/bug fix them if they were in HP-UX.
It frankly has not come up as much of an issue as the libraries are
available via hpcvaaz and most commercial developers use Motif if they
are widgeteers.  In short we (here on the X11/Motif/VUE team ) haven't
heard many complaints. Really.

We still would have had a problem satisfying you with the 7.0 release.
The 7.0 release was completed *before* R4 came out.  So we would have
had to rely on hpcvaaz to satisfy your needs. 

In a similar vain you want the latest thing on the net but want it
to be there in the last standard release.  You expect these to be
bug free and part of an extremely stable release.  This is hard to
deliver on!  Are these goals mutually exclusive or am I missing
something?

Re: 7)  GKS has been on the HP-UX boxes for a long time.  It has always
been available as a separate product.  Since you need a PD type version
you probably are talking about the xgks from the contrib/toolkit section
of the MIT tape.  As a point of reference, there are 9 toolkits in this
section.  I have no direct info on xgks, since I have never been asked
about it.  How about posting a request on the net (sansflames) and see
what kind of response you get.  Figraro from template as well as an
HP implementation of Phigs can be purchased.  PEX from the X consortium
is still rather young (I believe) and is I am unsure of its availability
outside the consortium.  Someone else will have to help out on this.

Re: 8)  The size of the MIT tape is huge, agreed.  There are many parts
to it.  Different people are interested in different parts.  Thats the
beauty of PD software, but it is unrealistic to expect all vendors
to ship all parts to all people for "free".

Re: 9)  Personally I thinks flames can be a good sign.  The person
obviously feels strongly about the subject.  On the other hand, keep
in mind that if you really want answers, it is not unreasonable to
try a more straight forward query first.  The Athena widgets have
been on hpcvaaz for a long time.  Various people on the net have
R4 binaries/source.  All these could have been found without extrainious
heat.


I was very serious about the fact that compatibility is religion here.
While I am involved with only X11/Motif here which makes me naive 
(as each of us is - knowing only a small fraction of the world's
knowledge) I know the immense amount of importance it take on here.

I am glad to have read your comments.  And I hope that this helps!  

Jim Byers
ITO Marketing/Lab Team

"Never attribute malice where ignorance will suffice."
				A rule for living