Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: charles@rpi.edu (Charles K. Hurst) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Predestination (Re: Mormons against the Bible!) Message-ID: Date: 17 Dec 90 01:28:36 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Lines: 94 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [This is a response to Joe Buehler's posting on predestination, though the only name that appeared in the original was David Wagner. Joe attempted to explain Augustine's ideas: God grants grace to everyone. But some are not saved. The difference lies in free will: some will ill use of their free will and resist grace. God knows how man is going to respond. This means that he knows a particular combination of graces that would cause any man to become a model of sanctity of virtue. --clh] Joe, I think you are setting yourself up as an easy target with this statement. If God knows "EXACTLY which graces will cause any particular man to become a model of sanctity and virtue" (saved, I believe you are saying), and if he applies such knowledge, then everyone should go to heaven. Ok, Joe, the big question for ten billion dollars: (drum roll) Why is God not responsible for people going to hell? Since he can apply the conditions that will cause them to go to heaven, then by NOT applying such graces he is responsible for their going to hell. If he does apply graces, they go to heaven. If he doesn't, they go to hell. HIS CHOICE, Joe, that is what you are saying here. Maybe you didn't mean to, but it is what you are implying. I find this argument on Predestination a little silly. God knows everything that has, is, and will happen. He is timeless and beyond the limitations of time. "Alpha and Omega" and "I am", right? But just because He knows who will be saved doesn't mean he MAKES people saved. If he wishes to let us make the choice by our FREE WILL, then he must leave the ultimate decision up to us. This is not to say that he won't do anything to try to influence it, :), but if he presents an "indisputable" case, I think our free will and general stubbornness will allow us to still say NO. Having a free will means that it must be possible for us to say NO even if God wants us to say YES. Furthermore, why is predestination so important? Some people out there seem to be defending this idea like it makes a difference about what we should believe as Christians. Maybe a few of you should show the rest of us how if there is no predestination then . . . . . .? (Fill in the blank) For instance, doesn't missions lose a lot of its importance under predestination? If you've read "Eternity in Their Hearts", by whom I cannot remember (somebody who knows, please post the name), then you will have at least heard the argument for why it is a necessity that we do missions. People are dying out there without hearing God's Good News of Salvation. (Read this book if you haven't, it says a LOT of things I think Western/American Christians should hear!) > >That's where predestination comes in. By choosing the right set of >graces, God can infallibly send anyone to heaven. (That's Augustine's >primary contribution to the problem, if I understand correctly.) That's >what predestination is in Catholic theology: predestination to Heaven >(but not to Hell). > >What about those who end in Hell, you say? What about them? It isn't >fair! God could have chosen them too! > >Well, remember, men have the ability to resist grace. The fact that the >series of graces God gave to someone did not end in their salvation is >due to one thing and one thing only: their abuse of grace. It is thus >not God's fault, but the man's fault, that he is in Hell. God certainly >knew what would happen, but the fault lies in the man's evil will. [stuff deleted] > >Joe Beuhler Umm, Joe, you appear to have contradicted yourself again. "The fact that the series of graces God gave to someone did not end in their salvation is due to one thing and one thing only: their abuse of grace." VERSUS "Further, He knows EXACTLY which graces will cause any particular man to become a model of sanctity and virtue." Which is it? Is it our choice or His? Love in Christ, Charles K. Hurst(charles@rpi.edu) [The classic Lutheran position -- which to my great shock seems to be the one Joe is taking -- is that it is God's choice in the cases of those who are saved, but their own fault in the case of those who are damned. The claim is that when someone gives a gift, we credit him for the good done by his gift, but don't blame him for everything that happens because he didn't give the same gift to everybody. This distinction seemed artificial to Calvin. But there is a certain asymmetry built into the situation. The saved are saved because God's grace lives in them. The Holy Spirit is with them, and any goodness they show came from God originally. There is no negative equivalent of the Holy Spirit. Those who are damned are not showing some sort of badness from God. So even if you conclude with Calvin that God is ultimately responsible for deciding who is going to be damned, this responsibility is of a very different kind than his responsibility for those he chose. --clh]