Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 17 Dec 90 03:32:43 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 92 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > I do not say that good works are unimportant. I didn't imply that (see > the last paragraph I wrote). I fully acknowledge their importance. I > agree that scripture teaches this. But it does NOT teach that we can be > saved by doing them. > What good works did the criminal who was crucified with Jesus do? > NONE. The last thing he did before he died was have faith (an active > verb) in Jesus. We're going to see a man in heaven who did NO good > works after he was saved. Repentence is a good work. If you do not repent, you cannot be saved, accordining to one point of view, thus the last action he performed on earth was a good work that saved him. But it isn't our good works that save us, but our faith, however, before we can have faith we must perform the action (the good work) of "turning back to the Lord," that is to say, repenting, otherwise we have demonstrated that we have no faith. Thus, while our good works do not save us, but rather our faith, our good works are nonetheless essential to our salvation, since without them we have demonstrated our lack of faith. > In conclusion, I do not at all downplay the importance of good > works. But I really take issue with any teaching that says 'you have to > be THIS good to get saved.' No, you don't. There are high standards > for a christian to meet, but meeting those standards without/before > having faith in Jesus will not do diddly squat for getting a person into > heaven. The faith comes first. If it's the other way, then that > criminal should be in hell and all the pharisees should not have been > rebuked for anything. They had the works down pat. No faith in God, > though. And we all know what Jesus had to say about that. This is why the first thing Jesus taught after his baptism in the river Jordan was, "Repent [a good work], for the kingdom of God is at hand." The idea is that your good works must flow from your faith. As Jesus said, without a Bible in front of me, "The good person from the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good, whereas the evil person from the evil treasure of his heart brings forth the evil." In other words, if Joe Blow helps the poor because he wants to go to heaven, he won't, whereas if Sally Anne helps the poor because she loves God and therefore loves her neighbor (knowing this will get her into heaven, but getting into heaven isn't her primary goal), then she will. Jesus also called this, "Circumcision of the heart." Helping the poor for personal gain (even personal salvation) means nothing unless one's heart is truly full of love. Let me be just a little bit more explicit to avoid confusion. Joe Blow says, "I hate God, but I know he's real. Helping the poor, although I hate them, is just one of those dumb things you've got to do, according to the rules, to get to heaven. So, I do it, but I don't like it, don't like God, don't like them, but I sure don't like hell, so I do it." That's called a bad attitude and Jesus said your actions come from the treasures of your heart; which treasure your action comes from determines its "goodness" or its "badness" regardless of how others view the immediate result. Thus, even helping the poor, if done for the wrong reason, can be construed as "sinful" and not really a good work. Having a close personal relationship with Jesus (as I do through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for example) is the first step in circumcision of the heart. Ask me, "have you been saved," and I'll say "yes," but this idea of "personal salvation" and "a personal relationship with Jesus" are concepts that, I think, have been abused in the past, held up as gods that are worshipped by the masses, who would rather "say the right words" than think about what they really mean. My own personal salvation is important to me but if I do not place the personal salvation of others as of primary importance in my life, I have learned nothing from Jesus. The reason Jesus died on the Cross wasn't to "get to heaven" but rather to save us from our sins. If we are to imitate Jesus, and I believe we are, then we concentrate on doing good and helping others to know Jesus without formulas but through their own hearts to His Sacred Heart. Attaining salvation, "getting to heaven," is the result but not the goal of doing good works, that is to say, repenting, praying, helping people to know Jesus, etc. Of course, I'm using heaven here in the common sense of "eternal bliss." If you use heaven in the sense of "unity with God," then that is the goal. I suppose what I've been trying to say is that eternal happiness isn't the goal of religion, though it is the result, since unity with God is the goal and the result. Thus, heaven isn't necessarily a place of eternal bliss; there is sadness and happiness in unity with God along with fulfillment and inner peace, or the Cross has taught us nothing. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.