Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Mormons against the Bible! Message-ID: Date: 19 Dec 90 09:15:39 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 151 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [This is the latest in a series of exchanges with David Wagner on predestination. >I share your concern about determinism. However, I am not teaching >determinism....our faith is a consequence of God's choosing us. >(Eph. 1:4, Eph 2:8,9.) Perhaps the main point of this is >that was cannot take credit for even our faith, i.e., our faith is not >a work that we can be proud of. --clh] I believe that we need to understand why God has "choosen" us. If we say that He does it for no particular reason, meaning that He is arbitrary, then He is no God at all. Because then He can't be neither just or fair. >I don't think 'foreordination' is in the Scriptures. I am willing to >discuss anything you can show me in the Scriptures about foreordination >with regard to salvation. > You are right, "foreordination" is not, but "foreordained" is. Read I Peter 1:20. [about the hardening of Pharoah's heart >I think I can see how you might say this, because the translators who >produced the King James Version that you read *were* into double >predestination. There are traces of this even in the NIV, (maybe the New >Evangelical Translation (NET) is better this way but I haven't read it yet). >But in Ex 8:15 we read very clearly: --clh] This is my whole point, we can't just read one verse in the Bible and come to a conclusion about what it says. We always need to look at it in a larger context, and ask the question: if this is true, how will it reflect on the character of God? Also, the issue which you raised is a very good one. Is it possible to translate the Bible without translating into it our own theology? I believe that it is not possible without God himself providing such translation. > >You accuse me of rationalization, when I am simply reading the Scriptures >to you. Yet you want to take predestination right out of the Bible >by saying the text is corrupted. As far as I know you have no hard >evidence for this; you simply reject the text because its teaching >is unacceptable to you. > Before we go any further it would be a very good idea to define what predestination means. By the way, "predestination" is not in the Bible, "predestinate" and "predestinated" is. Let me tell you what I reject. I will quote the Webster's Third New International Dictionary. Predestinate: to foreordain to an earthly or eternal lot or destiny (as salvation or damnation) by devine purpose or degree. I understaned that this means that the out come of our existence has been predetermined by God before we were ever borne, meaning that we had nothing to do with it at all. That we are doomed for either salvation or damnation no matter what we do. I don't believe that this is scriptural at all. If you think that it is, please provide some passages from the Bible. I have no trouble at all with foreordination. Interestingly the word "predestinate" also means has a meaning of ordain in both English and Greek. Foreordain: to dispose or appoint in advance. I have no problem at all with the understanding that since God does foreknow, he will also foreordain. one good example is when God calls Jeremiah to be a prophet when he is still a boy: Jeremiah 1:5 ============ "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." By the way, here is a case where the word "foreordain" is not used, but the text implies it. God has ordained Jeremiah *before* he came out of the womb. In other words, Jeremiah was foreordained. >>>Kindly show me one word of scripture in support of 'free agency'. > >> You got to be kidding! Read the Bible, starting with the decision which >> Adam and Eve made in the Garden of Eden. > >This shows the degree to which you misunderstand the Bible. Yes, God created >Adam and Eve with free will. But they became slaves of Satan when they >disobeyed God. Since then no man has been able to do anything good that >pleases God. Some text deleted. >I maintain there is not a word of Scripture that says an unbeliever has >'free agency'. I am still waiting for an informed response. The fact that we choose evil over good says that we have free agency. If we deny that man has free agency then we deny that he is sinful, because sin is the conscious violation of the law. The fact that sin enslave us is not an arguement against free agency, but it is in fact an arguement for it. For example, we know that drugs are edictive. If a person takes drugs and gets edicted to it, whoes fault is that? Did he use his free agency to take it prior to his ediction? Of course he did! Can he be free of it again? Yes, it is possible. Can he be free of it without that person exercising his or her free agency? Not likely. For it is possible to force a person to go without drugs for a long period of time, but when the opportunity will come again he or she will take it again. The only way it is possible for a person to come clean is that he or she must want to be clean. This means that the person must exercise his or her free agency. Like I said, Adam and Eve did exercise their free agency when they have disobeyed God. We also make such decisions daily. Are you saying that we don't? Let me ask you the question. Did God choose Saul to be the King of Israel? Why did he fall? Did God made him do it? Did God made a mistake, didn't He know what was going to happen? In contrast, why is it that Paul and others who were called magnified their calling? Did God made them do it, or did they choose to do it? Was free agency at work or Not? > Text deleted. >I don't claim expertise regarding the laying on of hands, but I don't believe >it is stated in Scripture as a requirement for salvation. It seems to be >a means by which the special gifts of the Spirit were bestowed on an >individual, These gifts were granted for the special purpose of helping the >Christian church to grow and be spread among the Gentiles, who otherwise had Are you saying that the gift of the holy Ghost is no longer required? If you believe that it is no longer needed, please let me know who received the revelation canceling it. If you believe that it is still needed, then again let me know who received the revelation that the laying on of the hands is no longer required for the gift of the Holy Ghost. >David H. Wagner >[I would rather keep this discussion focused on the issue of >predestination and not restart the issue of the special LDS >revelations. We had a fairly long discussion about LDS >beliefs not too long ago. --clh] I agree with the Moderator. David, if you would like to discuss LDS doctrines, please let me know and we can have some private exchanges. With brotherly love, Frank