Xref: utzoo comp.ai:8286 sci.bio:4208 sci.psychology:3933 alt.cyberpunk:5440 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!mango!raf From: raf@mango.cs.su.OZ.AU (A Stainless Steel Rat) Newsgroups: comp.ai,sci.bio,sci.psychology,alt.cyberpunk Subject: Re: The Bandwidth of the Brain Message-ID: <1713@cluster.cs.su.oz.au> Date: 26 Dec 90 14:54:53 GMT References: <37034@cup.portal.com> <1990Dec18.181935.23319@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <37111@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@cluster.cs.su.oz.au Reply-To: raf@basser.cs.su.OZ.AU (A Stainless Steel Rat) Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia Lines: 104 In article <37111@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: [Excerpt from _Cybernetics_, Transactions of the Eighth Conference, March 15-16, 1951, New York deleted] -I think McCulloch has described two phenomena here. In the first -place, we have the bricklayers who remember bricks because they -study them thoroughly in order to make decisions about which side -faces front, and which bricks go where. For example, if the bricks -you're using to build a wall come from two different batches -- one -with purple stones and one without -- it would be your responsi- -bility as a master bricklayer to distribute them in an aesthetic -pattern. You would not simply place them in the order they came, -with part of the wall having purple stones and part not. But this is not the case. Each brick is not "studied thoroughly." At best, there may be a cursory glance (due, admittedly, to the master bricklayer's skill at such things) for this purpose. In general the bricks *are* used in whatever order they are taken from the pile because both sides are virtually identical (over the large samples used, what's the difference?). This doesn't detract from your argument in the case of a programmer and I agree that concentration on something makes it easier to remember (I'll discuss this later). I also remind you that remembering the purple stone had absolutely nothing to do with aesthetic distribution of the bricks. It only occurred in the one brick randomly(?) chosen by the hypnotist. The brick layers that I know aren't at all interested in the aesthetic placement of each and every brick (unless they're building their own house, of course :-); they are more interested in just getting the job done (so they can go off and have a beer :-). -So it is no surprise that this information -- having filtered through -the highly refined judgment of the master bricklayer -- would have -a persistence in an old layer of memory. I would not be surprised -if a master programmer could be made to recall each line of code -he has written, under hypnosis. You've got it the wrong way around. The information entered the brain. In this case, it don't think it filtered through his judgment but for the sake of argument, we'll say that it did. If so, the chances of it remaining in conscious memory [conscious memory is the memories that you can remember consciously rather than the memories are only accessible via hypnosis/meditation - assuming that the two aren't the same set] would be greater because *attention had been paid to it*. If not, it is very difficult to remember but this doesn't alter the fact that it had entered the brain initially where it was obviously remembered anyway, but in such as a way as to not be rememberable (that can't be a word, can it :-?) which is why the hypnosis was required to elicit the information. IMPORTANT BIT: Think of it this way. The brain/subconscious takes in all of the sensory input that is available to it. This is recorded (or at least a great deal of it according to McCulloch's opinion). The mind/conscious processes whatever part of that information that it deems to be important at a given time. The greater the attention placed on some sensory input/internalised thought, the easier it is to remember. This is why you may remember the cake you had for your 5th birthday (maybe) but would have a lesser chance of remember the background smell of the flowers that were behind you at the time [you wouldn't have been concentrating on it at the time]. You might, however, remember even this under hypnosis. END OF IMPORTANT BIT -This is not at all the same thing as having a photographic memory -of the face of each brick. The bricklayer is remembering details -he used to make his decisions Assuming that the bricklayer did use such details in some decision making process (which I strongly doubt) -The other phenomenon described by McCulloch is the more -well-known example of a person who claims to have photographic -memory. I believe this is nothing more than a person who has -developed a mental exercise which happens to be useful for -providing memory cues. He might even believe that he is viewing -the actual image of the document in his mind, but it is really nothing -more than an internally-generated synthetic image of what he -believes the document looks like--in the same manner that people -who develop an ability to manipulate their brain's sense of location -often claim to "astral travel" (i.e. the "soul" leaves the body and goes -floating around the room, house, outdoors, etc.). What is the difference between a photographic memory that is a natural ability of someone and photographic memory that someone has developed personally? Unless you wish to define the mechanism by which natural photographic memories operates, the definition of the term is a functional one. He may or may not claim to have a photographic memory (it isn't stated either way). Whatever the case is, he *does have* a photographic memory. Whether it's a natural talent or he learnt how to do it (which is by no means impossible to do) is irrelevant. I won't do on about astral travelling except to say that you don't seem to know much about it :-( raf -- Robert A Fabian | "Sex is not a crime." raf@basser.cs.su.oz.au | "In my view, pre-marital intercourse Basser Department of Computer Science | comes into the category of breaking University of Sydney | and entering." - Tom Sharpe