Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!usc!samsung!olivea!orc!inews!iwarp.intel.com!gargoyle!ddsw1!karl From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Re: A3000UX competition Summary: Unix buys you a lot..... Message-ID: <1991Jan01.211455.2825@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Date: 1 Jan 91 21:14:55 GMT References: <453@mathlab.math.ufl.EDU> <93075@aerospace.AERO.ORG> <86470@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> <37299@cup.portal.com> Reply-To: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) Distribution: usa Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Wheeling, IL Lines: 84 In article <37299@cup.portal.com> mike_myke_schwartz@cup.portal.com writes: >Obviously, my last article was interrupted (by this blasted lousy interface >they have for the portal here). > >Just to conclude, what I see in this thread of verbal abuse (er, I mean >discussion), is that NeXT owners are just stuck on NeXT, Mac owners are >stuck on Macs, and Amiga owners are stuck on Amiga. But the facts are: > >The Amiga can Run X-windows, open look, Unix, Mac software (using AMAX), >MS-DOS and Amiga software. While Unix is clearly the only hope I can see >for a true standard interface for a wide variety of platforms, it does not >make any platform perform very well (it looks like Unix is only going to >be portable to systems with large RAM and hard disks instead of being >portable to anything anyway). What the other operating systems do provide is >a platform for writing programs that gain the best performance out of the >specific machine. A 4MB 68030 Amiga with 80MB of hard disk should run >multiple applications similar to what you would run on a Unix machine with >much more hard disk and RAM. Unix runs quite well in 4MB RAM and 80MB fixed disk, IF you have a reasonable implementation of Unix! If AmiUnix really requires something like 16MB RAM and a 1GB disk drive, then it's seriously screwed up. Period. I ran Unix on a 386 with an 80MB fixed disk and 4MB of RAM for quite some time, and ran anywhere from 3-5 local jobs and 4 modems on it.. no problem (except occasionally speed) at all. The Suns at my office do have 16MB RAM, and a 300MB fixed disk. But we do development on these! Of that 300MB fixed disk, 100MB is OS, and that's 'cause we load everything there is, including kernel reconfiguration, drivers for all kinds of diverse and strange devices, etc. You CAN configure a Sun workstation on about 200MB -- but you won't want to. The problem with the SUN operating system space-wise is that it (and many like it, the R3000 MIPS for example) is a RISC processor. That immediately doubles the size of EVERYTHING the chip executes -- and incresed code size equals both increased hard disk and RAM space. When you do less work per instruction, you end up with a (much) larger program. >I would like to know what Unix really buys for you when you could have the >identical applications and features (like USENET) from a non-unix machine >with better performance. Well, I'm not so certain about the "better performance" issue, but I am certain of the following: 1) Unix uses and needs real hardware memory protection. GURUs are impossible on a UNIX machine (save from system kernel bugs!) This is a MAJOR deal when you're doing development -- rebooting because you blew it is a major drag! This also means you can do real work and development on the same machine -- 6-hour program runs are feasible on such an environment. On the AMI one guru and you get to start all over! 2) Unix still has one of the best generalized IPC facilities sets that has come along in operating systems (System 5 now). It CAN be horrifyingly complex, but there isn't much I can't accomplish with it. My experience with AmiDOS isn't nearly as complete here, unfortunately. 3) Flat-address space addressing -- this is a big deal as well. "You see a 32-bit address space, with all cells alike....." And virtual memory (that 32-bit space really COULD be 32-bits in size, given a 4GB disk drive :-)!) Seriously, virtual memory is a major win, since you can cheaply extend your RAM size (at the cost of LOTS of performance) in an almost infinite manner. When those overages are transient (they often are), it's a lifesaver and the performance costs are negligable. This also allows (easily) for shared text segments -- which means 5 copies of the same program all reference the same "pure" program pages! 4) The utilities that come with Unix make it immediately useful to the purchaser. While this is a market-driven thing, I haven't seen such a rich "bundled" utility set in ANY other operating system on ANY platform. This is very significant -- and Commodore could easily address this with the Amiga line. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, !ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 808-7300], Voice: [+1 708 808-7200] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"