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From: baranski@meridn.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: sexist space
Message-ID: <9012052040.AA03835@decpa.pa.dec.com>
Date: 2 Jan 91 02:32:27 GMT
Sender: ambar@ora.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Organization: O'Reilly and Associates Inc., Cambridge MA
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   From: greg@uts.amdahl.COM (Greg Bullough)
   Date: 16 Nov 90 22:16:30 GMT

   "There is a not-so-subtle form of sexism here which says "what women do in
   their space is virtuous and good, but what men do in their space is
   conspiratorial and evil." It is precisely this sort of sexism which as so
   polarized the forces on either side of the women-space/ men-space issue."

Women were excluded from men's activities, and felt that they were
missing out, and demanded to be included.  No Problem.

Now, we have women only activities from which men are excluded.  Well,
there are some things going on in women only activites which I find
*very* interesting, and *I* feel *I* am missing out.  Yet, feminists
proclaim their *right* to keep me out???

I can understand that women might want to be free of any harrassment.
Yet, I mean no harrassment.  I merely want to be there, perhaps to
spectate, perhaps to participate as I feel moved to, as any woman
would be able to, yet I can't.

The reason that these women gather, and exclude men, is not because of
what men who might be interested in participating in them might be
like, but because of the fear in the women.  Is this supposedly a Good
Thing???  Is this a valid reason for discrimination?  I certainly
don't think so.  And if this principle were applied against women, I'm
*sure* that feminists would be incensed!

"We really have a choice: either we can acknowledge that part of human
nature is sexual tribalism, and that humans don't draw lines between
what they do in the environment of "we" versus "we and not-we." Or, we
can refuse to acknowledge that, and suffer the pain that comes from
realizing that NONE of us are therefore entitled to gender-specific
bonding spaces, except under the scrutiny of the opposite gender."

I think that there is a third alternative.  State the agenda of any
event up front, without discrimination.  Let any and all who wish to
participate within that agenda participate without discrimination.

Of course, it will force people to be up front with what their agendas
*really* are, or they might end up with some 'undesirables'.  There
will be many events which I will certainly not be interested in
because of their extremism, and they can have that space to
themselves, 'cause I sure won't want it!  But there will be some which
will be a common ground, and I believe that is where our hope lies.

Jim Baranski