Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!gatech!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: RE: Hell and the Faithful Message-ID: Date: 24 Dec 90 09:29:15 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 148 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , BINDNER@auvm.auvm.edu writes: > I see no one took my bait. I'm asking a non-theological question > here: to what extent is a belief in hell social, and a result of > persecution? What then happens to hell when persecution stops? > I'm not trying to say hell doesn't exist. What I'm implying is > that those who are not suffering for the Lord should watch themselves, > as they may be the cause of another's suffering. I believe it was Plato who said something to the effect that the purpose of the religion is to provide a system of belief for the common people wherein the good are rewarded and the evil are punished. People cannot be ruled without such a system of belief. At any rate, when I was in the library, I saw Dante's immortal poem in three different volumes: The Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradisio. The Inferno's pages were well-worn and dog-eared; Purgatorio's pages were slightly worn; Paradisio's pages were stiff and brand-new. There's a fascination with hell that transcends the ages. Heaven, I think, is almost regarded as a boring place. Live while you can, eventually you'll go to heaven, is an unfortunate attitude. The Catholic attitude that we'll be very busy in heaven doing the work of the Lord, being the Lord's messengers along with the angels (meaning "messengers," of course), carrying prayers and messages hither and yon, helping people on earth, etc. -- I find this attitude much more appealing than the standard harp-player-heaven evident in cartoons. As a Catholic, I will be with God and be able to serve God in many interesting ways when I am in heaven. I'm glad I'm a Catholic! On the other hand, I heard Pat Robertson talking about heaven once reflecting what I thought was a very Catholic attitude: he said that, in heaven, we will be very busy doing the work of the Lord, and he also made mention of possibly working on other planets, although that was fanciful speculation, but after all, God is God of the whole universe, he said. I'm not terribly familiar with the Protestant concept of heaven in the modern world. For Luther and Calvin, the righteous soul (not based on works, I gather, but righteous by God's grace, exemplified by works, I suppose) looked forward to communion with God; Catholic enough so far. Catholic heaven-thinking builds on medieval mysticism, promoting mystical inwardness, union of the soul with God, promoting (essentially) monastic values among the devout laity. The intimacy of the soul with God, spurred by devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, tended to overshadow the heavenly humanism of the Renaissance. Both Protestants and Catholics made a move away from the worldly. I suppose it's worth noting that the Reformation included no disputes over the nature of heaven itself, just on how to get there. Luther said, "We will be equal to St. Paul, St. Peter, our beloved Lady, and all the saints in their honor and glory." Luther also talked about the different rewards that different saints receive, though. Luther's opinion of the vision of God was essentially the same as Augustine's, that there are different degrees of merit and reward, but it's the same heaven for everyone. Calvin explained that different Christians receive different rewards but all are equally close to the divine. In fact, neither of them emphasized the rewards very much in their writings. Back to hell again, Luther thought the earth was the center of the universe, the upper regions pure, with lower regions progressively impure. At the Last Judgment, God will purify the world by fire and everything impure will be burned at the center of the earth, making the whole world pure (except for the bowels). Like the Reformation itself, Luther imagined the End of the World to be a reformation or renovation of the world rather than its total destruction. For Luther, as for others, heaven meant complete annihilation of rank; no more distinctions between servant and master, or fathers and sons, for that matter. This may be a reflection of Luther's own personal situation. Luther wrote that he had no doubts that he and his dying father would "shortly see each other again in the presence of Christ," but this didn't mean that their household would be reestablished, nor did it mean children would continue to be submissive to their parents. This caused Calvin to say that, because children need authority figures, heaven can have no children; and because women need authority figures in their husbands, husbands and wives will be torn apart. When Zwingli tried to convert the King of France, Francois I, to Protestantism, he promised the King that in heaven Francois would enjoy the company of his ancestors, biblical prophets and saints, and even such characters as Hercules, Socrates, the Catos and Scipios (the King of France remained true to his Catholic faith). Luther reproved Zwingli for including pagans in his list, even though he himself wrote that he _hoped_ to meet Cicero. Calvin was alone among the reformers who dismissed meeting people in heaven as irrelevant next to being with God. Christian renewal came initially from the Council of Trent followed by theologians, mystics, bishops and priests and cardinals and other religious orders, and Catholic laity. Catholic Reformers endorsed the Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) that heaven "consists in the vision of God and enjoyment of His beauty who is the source and principle of all goodness and perfection." A Jesuit catechism says that even a prince comes to heaven without royal attire. "There is no room for royal splendor in Paradise. Before the deity, evven the dauphin is naked." This explains all the pictures of heaven and hell in which everyone is always naked. I've seen representations of Christ as the right hand of God completely naked. Catholic representations of heaven are typically dotted with virtuous and often _virgin_ saints. An Italian Dominican friar Antonino Polti filled his Paradise with angels and saints like John the Baptist, Augustine, and Jerome (who is also to be found in a Protestant paradise), and the founders of various religious orders, virgins, martyrs, and saints, without any Protestants or pagans. The Queen of Heaven is, of course, the most prominent of the saints in many artistic renderings of heaven. Mary, of course, is the Queen of Saints and presides over all the other saints, who all surround God. In other words, the saints surround Mary, the center of Paradise, who in turn surrounds God. Protestants rejected the presence of Mary. However, Protestants could not totally eliminate the feminine from heaven, so found other methods, such as Giles Fletcher's depiction of God's gentleness and love as Lady Mercy. Lady Mercy gave her breasts to weary travellers to quench their fiery thirst, etc. Well, I seem to have discussed heaven more than hell, which was the original question. Like many things, however, it may not be possible to discuss hell without a clearer understanding of heaven. Catholic heaven, in my estimation, tends to emphasize our relationship with God. Imagine two poles set perpendicular to each other. Oh, like this: | | _____ The vertical beam is our relationship with God; the horizontal beam is our relationship with our fellow human beings. Although a Christian representation, I understand this has its roots in Judaism. At any rate, if you bend the vertical (your relationship with God), you're not only breaking off your relationship with God, you are, de facto, breaking off your relationship with your fellow human beings. Similarly, if you break or bend the horizontal, you are, de facto, breaking off your relationship with God. Heaven is the same situation. To be in relationship with God means to be in relationship to your fellow human beings; to be in relationship with your fellow human beings means to be in relationship with God. This is heaven. Some Protestant views of heaven in the absence of a relationship with those saints who have gone before us ignore the necessary relationship with God in terms of our relationship with our fellow human beings. From my reading, I gather such representations of heaven are few and far between, but perhaps our Protestants readers can give us more information on that. In my Bible class last night, my teacher asked me, "Where did you learn that?" and I said, "Well, that's what I was taught in Sunday school." I've discovered that most of my strongest beliefs are centered in "what I learned in Sunday school." So, to Catholics and Protestants, "What did you learn in Sunday school about heaven and hell?" > Michael -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms