Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Mormons against the Bible! Message-ID: Date: 24 Dec 90 08:46:30 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 190 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Chuck, could you hold this one for me until January 6? Thanks. I will try to e-mail a copy to Frank. David Wagner. In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > I believe that we need to understand why God has "choosen" us. If we > say that He does it for no particular reason, meaning that He is > arbitrary, then He is no God at all. Because then He can't be neither > just or fair. >>I don't think 'foreordination' is in the Scriptures. I am willing to >>discuss anything you can show me in the Scriptures about foreordination >>with regard to salvation. > You are right, "foreordination" is not, but "foreordained" is. > Read I Peter 1:20. "He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" Your own Webster's does not see much difference between 'predestine' and 'foreordain'. Tell me, what difference would it make to you, whether God 'predestined' Christ to save us, or 'foreordained' him? > This is my whole point, we can't just read one verse in the Bible and come > to a conclusion about what it says. We always need to look at it in a larger > context, and ask the question: if this is true, how will it reflect on the > character of God? Also, the issue which you raised is a very good one. Is > it possible to translate the Bible without translating into it our own > theology? I believe that it is not possible without God himself providing > such translation. But you accused me of rationalizing, when I am only trying to believe and understand the Scriptures. In particular I showed very clearly that Scripture teaches that Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God started hardening it. Yet you have given no answer except to cast doubt on the only Word of God that has been revealed to us. Would God let the text become corrupted? This is what is written about his Word: "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." > Let me tell you what I reject. I will quote the Webster's Third New > International Dictionary. > > Predestinate: to foreordain to an earthly or eternal lot or destiny (as > salvation or damnation) by devine purpose or degree. Predestine == foreordain? > I understaned that this means that the out come of our existence has been > predetermined by God before we were ever borne, meaning that we had nothing > to do with it at all. That we are doomed for either salvation or damnation > no matter what we do. I don't believe that this is scriptural at all. If you > think that it is, please provide some passages from the Bible. Actually, I am not absolutely sure what it means that God 'predestines' us for salvation. This is one of the more difficult doctrines of the Bible. It might mean exactly what you've written, that God in his foreknowledge has determined that some will believe and be saved. However, if this is in fact the case, we certainly don't know what God knows, so for us it is not determinism. However I will maintain that the unbeliever cannot 'make a decision' to believe. His conversion and his salvation is entirely God's work. I think the main point of this is not determinism, but a question of 'can I take any credit for my salvation and my faith?' If the answer to this question is 'yes', then I am trusting in my own works, and not in Christ's redemption. When it comes to the unbeliever, one asks, 'Why doesn't God work faith in him, if conversion is entirely God's work?' On this the Scripture is clear: some people resist the Holy Spirit, others never hear the gospel, 'which is the power of salvation of everyone who believes'. (Romans 1:16). In addition, the Scripture is also clear that God 'wants all men to be saved' (1 Tim 2:4). > I have no trouble at all with foreordination. Interestingly the word > "predestinate" also means has a meaning of ordain in both English and Greek. > > Foreordain: to dispose or appoint in advance. > > I have no problem at all with the understanding that since God does foreknow, > he will also foreordain. one good example is when God calls Jeremiah to be > a prophet when he is still a boy: I don't think I would argue with that either. Except that I would use the word predestine, which is the word Paul used in Romans 8:29,30. > Jeremiah 1:5 > ============ > "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou comest forth > out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the > nations." > > By the way, here is a case where the word "foreordain" is not used, but the > text implies it. God has ordained Jeremiah *before* he came out of the > womb. In other words, Jeremiah was foreordained. But not predestined? What is the difference? >>I maintain there is not a word of Scripture that says an unbeliever has >>'free agency'. I am still waiting for an informed response. > > The fact that we choose evil over good says that we have free agency. If > we deny that man has free agency then we deny that he is sinful, because > sin is the conscious violation of the law. Then how could David say: "Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:5 What consciousness did he have in his mother's womb? What knowledge of God's Law? > The fact that sin enslave us > is not an arguement against free agency, but it is in fact an arguement for > it. For example, we know that drugs are edictive. If a person takes drugs > and gets edicted to it, whoes fault is that? Did he use his free agency > to take it prior to his ediction? Of course he did! Can he be free of it > again? Yes, it is possible. Can he be free of it without that person > exercising his or her free agency? Not likely. For it is possible to > force a person to go without drugs for a long period of time, but when > the opportunity will come again he or she will take it again. The only > way it is possible for a person to come clean is that he or she must want > to be clean. This means that the person must exercise his or her free agency. This is an interesting analogy. One wonders how many addicts are cured through an act of their own will? Possibly a few. But the description that Scripture gives is that we were 'dead in our transgressions and sins'. What dead person, besides Christ, has ever made himself alive again? Besides which, Scripture says that God, not us, has made us alive in Christ. -- Ephesians 2:1-5. > Like I said, Adam and Eve did exercise their free agency when they have > disobeyed God. We also make such decisions daily. Are you saying that we > don't? I only say that the unbeliever cannot decide to believe, but that God works faith in him through his gospel, and yes, through baptism. > Let me ask you the question. Did God choose Saul to be the King of Israel? > Why did he fall? Did God made him do it? Did God made a mistake, didn't He > know what was going to happen? > In contrast, why is it that Paul and others who were called magnified > their calling? Did God made them do it, or did they choose to do it? Was > free agency at work or Not? Well, to begin with, God warned Israel not to insist on having a king. The king they were to put their hope in was the Messiah to come. Second, I have never said that God predestines some to damnation. Third, I have never said that believers do not have free agency to disobey God, just as Adam and Eve did. I have only said that unbelievers do not have free agency to believe or obey. I would be interested in seeing any Scripture you can show me that says otherwise. Paul is probably the clearest example of election in the Bible. A persecutor of the church, the 'chief of sinners', as he later called himself, was miraculously converted, and made an Apostle of Christ. Did he deserve this? Certainly not! Did he 'make a decision for Christ'. I would say that Christ 'made a decision' for Paul! But God foreknew Paul to be a useful 'lump of clay' and made of him one of the most important buiders (or foundation stones) of Christ's church. Likewise, I don't claim to deserve to believe in Christ, to receive eternal life. I deserve only eternal damnation. The good news of Jesus Christ is that we will not get what we deserve, but by God's grace alone we have eternal life. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "We have a sure prophetic Word By inspiration of the Lord; And tho' assailed on evr'y hand, Jehovah's Word shall ever stand. "By pow'rs of empire banned and burned, By pagan pride rejected, spurned, The Word still stands the Christian's trust While haughty empires lie in dust." --"We Have a Sure Prophetic Word" --Emanuel Cronenwett, 1880. --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #290. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.