Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!willett!ForthNet
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: X3J14 Goals
Message-ID: <2196.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 2 Jan 91 12:38:46 GMT
Organization: String, Scotch tape, and Paperclips.  (in Pgh, PA)
Lines: 91


 Date: 12-30-90 (17:56)              Number: 730 of 732 (Echo)
   To: B.RODRIGUEZ2 [BRAD]           Refer#: 724
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: HAS REPLIES
 Subj: X3J14 GOALS                   Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> > [from Jack Woehr] ... well, just get your own team together of 25 >
 -> > core members who have about 400 years of Forth experience amongst >
 -> > them and convince them to expend about $40,000 each...

 -> *Sigh*  Are we ever going to hear the end of this kind of argument?
 -> The "appeal to superior authority" doesn't cut it with me, any more
 -> than the "argument from altruism."  Either the Standard stands on its
 -> own merit, or it doesn't.

         Yes. I contend that it stands on its merit. I Forth for a living
 and will have to implement it on my tiny single board computers and sell
 it and eat or starve from it. I'm happy with the prospects, with a few
 minor quibbles.

         Brad, it isn't a question of "superior authority". It's a
 question of "the work to be done has largely been done and PAID FOR,
 and the carpers-against by and large are ready neither to re-do the work
 nor pay for it again. Money, time, dedication and effort talk, bullshit
 walks.

         I'm just a "l'il guy", virtually an observer on the committee.
 Nobody appointed me to come and vote, I just show up. I've made four
 meetings, I'm on my way to LA in January. After that meeting I will be
 personally out of pocket the total sum of about $3,000 for my
 insignificant participation in this noble undertaking. My reward is that
 in the field of mixed RAM/ROM sytems, certain wise motions have been
 adopted and certain unwise motions have been defeated, which will make
 my job easier as a designer of embedded control Forths. (I will bring
 a largely-BASIS-compliant system to LA in January to prove my point.)

         Honest Brad, this is not a star-chamber proceeding, it's almost
 anarchic democracy. Everybody gets heard, even if we drag it out to the
 wee hours. People jump up and down and shout and everything! It's quite
 a spectacle. :-)

         If we wanted to get picky, we actually COULD invoke superior
 authority:

         Bess Rather: ~20 years professional Forth experience.
         Greg Bailey: ~15 years professional Forth experience.
         Don Colburn: ~15 years professional Forth experience.
         John Rible:  ~15 years professional Forth experience.
         John Hayes:  ~12 years professional Forth experience.
         ... and on and on. Do I bore you?

          Nothing personal, but NAME A PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE TO THE
 CURRENT PROCEDURE that actually will result in a(n) (Inter)National
 Standard. After you realize that we are three years into this thing,
 and that IT HAS TO WORK or Forth will be widely discredited
 commercially, get busy and:

         - LEARN THE BASIS. The ancient Hindu who invented chess
           certainly could not have forseen all the implications of
           the moves which he assigned to the various chesspieces.
           Neither can the X3J14 TC forsee everything. Help us! Prove
           cases where our constructs are flawed!

         - ACCEPT THE BASIS as a document which can be improved but
           will not be discarded and restarted afresh. Find the genuine
           flaws and save the theology for your own private, non-standard
           MyVeryOwnFORTH Revision 99.99.

         - IMPROVE THE BASIS by rational comment that recognizes the
           current BASIS as virtually dpANS with some amendment yet to
           come.

         - SUPPORT THE BASIS by positive-spirited commentary rather than
           opposition on political grounds.

         BASIS14 IS IMPLEMENTABLE ON MY TINY FORTH SINGLE BOARDS. IT IS
 IMPLEMENTABLE ON UNIX SUPERMINIS. PROGRAMS WILL BE PORTABLE BETWEEN THE
 TWO.

         *Sheesh* what more could you ask for from a *S*T*A*N*D*A*R*D*.

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
 <<<>>>
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett.  You cannot Reply to the author
using email.  Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
the author may have included (USMail addresses, telephone #, whatever).
Report problems to: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us or uunet!willett!dwp