Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 3 Jan 91 09:27:17 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 175 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu [In a discussion between Cindy Smith and Kenneth Kutz, Kenneth was concerned about Cindy's statement >> Attaining salvation, >> "getting to heaven," is the result but not the goal of doing good works... because it seemed to contradict their agreed position that good words do not save us. He attributes the confusion to Cindy's idea >> Repentence is a good work. --clh] Repentence is a good work. The confusion in your post is the result of considering repentence something other than a good work. Clearly, good works mean nothing unless our good works are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. Yet how can the cleansing blood of Jesus wash us unless we present good works to be cleansed? How can our souls be cleansed unless we perform the good work of repentence? As Jesus said, "The good person draws forth goodness from the good treasure of his heart, the evil person draws forth evil from the evil treasure of his heart." When we allow Jesus to work within us, we bring forth goodness from the good treasure of our hearts. Until you understand this, you will not understand Christianity or its underlying faith in the God of our salvation. > and again we see: > >> This is why the first thing Jesus taught after his baptism in the >> river Jordan was, "Repent [a good work], for the kingdom of God is at > > How can God save us "not according to our good works" (2 Tim 1:9) and > repentance (which is present at salvation) be a good work that we do? > If repentance is a "good work" that originates in man, then 2 Tim 1:9 > is wrong. The question we have to ask is, does repentance originate > in man? Can man take the credit for repentance as a "good work"? > ... > We see from Scripture itself that the truth of 2 Tim 1:9 is preserved. > Repentance originates with God and is a gift granted to us. It is > not something we drum up in our flesh. Faith also originates with God and is a gift granted to us. "It is not something we drum up in our flesh." Acts 15:9, "He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they." Paul is here refusing to impose the Mosaic law on the Gentile believers based on the Holy Spirit being received by Christians regardless of their adoption of the Mosaic law. Peter reaffirms that we have all been given an invitation to salvation through faith in the power of Christ. This faith, again, is a gift from God. Acts 20:21, "I earnestly bore witness for both Jews and Greeks to repentance before God and to faith in our Lord Jesus." Paul didn't preach about faith in Jesus and grace in a vacuum; Paul preached to Felix "about faith in Christ Jesus. But as he [Paul] spoke about righteousness and self-restraint and the coming judgment, Felix became frightened...." Romans 4:13, "It was not through the Torah that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes form faith. For if those who adhere to the Torah are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the Torah produces wrath; but where there is no Torah, neither is there violation. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the Torah but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, 'I have made you father of many nations.'" So, you see, again, faith is a gift from God, and we are saved by faith and not by works, but, also, again, our faith is credited as our righteousness, and the way we know we have faith is in our demonstration of good works (repentence, etc.). Romans 10:5, Paul contrasts the righteousness that comes from Torah, and the righteousness that comes from faith. Christ here is the goal of the Torah, the true meaning of the Mosaic code, which cannot be understood in a vacuum, that is to say, neither outside the culture of Israel nor the Messiah. I think it's a mistake to always translate "Torah" as "law." If you translate "Torah" as "Bible" you get a different flavor in a lot of these passages. "Law" is a secular term that can cause some confusion in trying to understand the text. Let's try Romans 10:5 in this way, "Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from the Bible, 'The one who does these things will live by them.' But the righteousness that comes from faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down) or 'Who will go down into the abyss' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." As Jesus said, "It isn't what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, rather it is what comes out of your mouth that makes you unclean." So, Jesus said that an action on your part (a bad work) can make you unclean. Paul here says that an action on your part (a good work), that is, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord, which action comes from your faith, will bring you salvation. Probably we're arguing semantics again, which, in my opinion, was unfortunately what much of Reformation disputes were about. "Faith not works" is a another god that some people worship without knowing or studying why they believe it. Paul didn't say "Faith not works," he simply contrasted the two in a way that some other authors contrasted "soul and spirit," which, as you may know, may be contrasted but not separated. So faith and works. > REMEMBER: > ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace > is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: > otherwise work is no more work. Paul is speaking here of the remnant of Israel that has _rejected_ Christ. Let's give the full context: Romans 11:1, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' But what is God's response to him? 'I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.' So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened." He goes on to discuss the salvation brought to the Gentiles by their transgression. The remnant was chosen by grace, not because their merited the choosing. Thus, although the Jews have been unfaithful to God by their rejection of God's Messiah, God nonetheless remains faithful to them. The failure of the Jews to believe in Christ is a "warning," my notes say, "to be on guard against any semblance of anti-Jewish arrogance, that is, failure to recognize their total dependence on divine grace." We are completely dependent on divine grace. As mentioned earlier, our good works must be touched by the sacrifice of Christ, or they have no merit, since our only merit is in Christ. One might say we are sanctified in the Mass when our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving touches the sacrifice of Christ and is offered to God which God then gives to us in the form of the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Salvation. Romans 1:17 says it best: "For in [the Gospel] is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The one who is righteous by faith will live.'" Obviously, you must be righteous by faith; righteousness by means other than faith will do you no good. Thus, if one performs a work that results in good, it is not considered a "good work" unless the work came "from the good treasure of your heart," that is to say, you performed the good work because of your love for God. As my notes say, "Faith is the gift of the holy Spirit and denotes acceptance of salvation as God's righteousness, that is, God's gift of a renewed relationship in forgiveness and power for a new life. Faith is response to God's claim on people and their destiny." > Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu I'd love to have responded more fully to your Scripture citations but, as it happens, I have to go to Bethel Bible study in a few minutes....:-) -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.