Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!clyde.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Hell and the Faithful Message-ID: Date: 7 Jan 91 03:57:25 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 97 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , jclark%sdcc6@ucsd.edu (John Clark) writes: >In article ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >...Regard a queston on the existence of hell ... >+ >+I'll answer you question with another quesition. Would God be merciful >+to the rest of us if he sent Adolp Hitler to Heaven? >+ > >I don't beleive this justifies the exsitence of some 'eternal' state >of 'hell'. If the God punishes then surely the punishment cannot be >eternal in the sense of a conscious entity knowing that he was being >punished during that period. > >As for the argument for 'obeying' the God due to the punishments >otherwise, this seems to be close to some 'justification' by works >which will not work either. >-- > >John Clark >jclark@ucsd.edu Interestingly, the modern day revelation which the prophet Joseph Smith received on this subject is as follows: Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 19:10-13 ===================================== "For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore-" "Eternal punishment is God's punishment." "Endless punishment is God's punishment." Basically, what this revelation says is that punishment will not be for ever. In D&C Section 76 the revelation received by the prophet Joseph Smith and by Sidney Rigdom, via a vision, explains the three levels of heaven, and the type of individuals which will go into each one of them. It also explains that only the sons of perdition will be cast out into eternal darkness. To become a son of perdition one has to know, not just to believe, that there is a God and that Jesus is the Christ, the living son of God, and yet turn against God. I don't know what it means to be cast out into eternal darkness. I assume that it is a place which is void of any influence from God, where there is no "light" at all, just "darkness". Paul spoke about the concept of the three levels of heaven. I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." It is obvious that Paul didn't believe that all those who will go to heaven will receive the same glory. He clearly states that one may receive glory which is comparable to the sun and another which is worthy only to a glory which is comparable to the brightness of the dimmest star in the heavens. Interestingly, Paul defines three levels (the sun, moon and the star), and differences within one of the levels (the stars). 2 Corint 12:3-4 =============== "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I can't tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." It is clear to me that if Paul was caught up to the third heaven, there must be at least a first and a second heaven also. The idea that there is only one heaven and one hell can't be supported if it implies that all who will go to heaven will receive the same glory, and all those who will go to hell will receive the same punishment, forever. There is clearly a problem with the ortodox Christian view of heaven and hell. It appears that the ortodox Christian beliefs violates the idea that God is just and fair. The following story tries to illustrate the problem. A bank robber killed one of the tellers, and got caught. He was sentenced to die, however, prior to his execution, which took many years to bring about, he was converted and accepted Jesus Christ. He went to heaven while the teller went to hell. The teller complaint, and said that he wished that he would have received the time and the opportunity to accept Christ. It is clear that many Christians and non-Christians have a proplem with the ortodox Christian believes regarding reward and punishment. Only new revalations received can clear the problem, such as the ones quoted above, and others which deals with the opportunity which is provided to those who didn't have the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, but will receive it in the spirit world (reffer to I Peter 3:18-19 & 4:6 and D&C 138). For God to be God, he needs to be just and fair, amongst other things. With brotherly love, Frank