Xref: utzoo comp.org.eff.talk:1181 misc.legal:23519
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!att!att!mcdchg!ddsw1!karl
From: karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Sophistication of federal investigators
Summary: I'm not flaming on this topic..... but I am pointing out it's lunacy
Message-ID: <1991Jan13.191251.28841@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 13 Jan 91 19:12:51 GMT
References: <1991Jan10.023821.15346@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <1991Jan10.035939.26587@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <286@kumr.UUCP>
Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Wheeling, IL
Lines: 94

In article <286@kumr.UUCP> kamins@kumr.UUCP (Scot Kamins) writes:
>In article <1991Jan10.035939.26587@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes:
>
>>If you're in this for some free press, and a good name for yourself (etc.)
>
>Mr. Denninger has apparently forgotten about whom he's speaking.  Mssrs Wozniak,
>Kapor, Barlow, Gilmore, and the other members of EFF's board are in no need of 
>any more "good name" than they have collectively and individuallly garnered
>for themselves over the years in the computer world.  As for "free press," I'm
>sure that these guys have all they need! These people are to be praised for
>their historic and current good works for <<ALL OF US<<, not chastised for not
>saving the entire electronic world in one day!

Actually, I do very much appreciate what is being done here.

What I don't find laudable is the method in which it is being approached.  
This problem is not localized to the electronic frontier, as they call it.
As such, treating only one small part of the illness isn't going to solve 
the entire malignancy.  It >might< get the electronic frontier an exception
to the rule(s) -- THIS TIME.

My posting was an honest attempt to find out what was being done, and why.
While people who run public-access systems, and work in the electronic
industries are being targeted, they are not the only ones!  The fact remains
that our society is degenerating into a police state, and these abuses upon
certain members of our electronic community are a SYMPTOM, not the problem
itself.

The seizure of assets prior to trial, indicting a person on 75 different
counts due to one supposedly-illegal action, the attendant coercion and
browbeating that goes on, the destruction of people's earnings capacity, 
and the general "witch hunt" mentality permeates all facets of society
today.  It all boils down to a disregard for the liberties and freedoms we
have codified in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the systematic
destruction of these liberties, and the eventual creation of a police state.

It began with the "drug war" a few years ago.  The law was perverted to allow
the seizure of "drug dealers" property, even from people who weren't charged
with a crime.  Ex-Governor of Florida Bob Martinez actually sanctioned the 
Volusia County Sherrif's seizure of cash from people travelling on their 
roads, without warrant or probable cause, and without arresting the people 
in question!  THIS IS STILL GOING ON TODAY and has brought in over 2 MILLION
dollars from persons who were never charged with a crime or convicted of any
wrongdoing.  Their only crime was having too much green money on them at the
moment when they got stopped for speeding.  The last time I checked,
simply having money (in ANY amount) was not against the law!  In any event,
even if that money WAS from illegal practices, the government is supposed to
prove that before they can take your property!

Suddenly, that same kind of mentality and procedure shows up in Operation 
Sun Devil and the RIPCO case!  Note that neither of these cases ended up 
being successfully prosecuted -- yet neither have the people affected 
received their assets back, or compensation for the (illegal) harassment and
disruption to their lives!  In the Jolnet case Rich Andrews wasn't even
charged with a crime!

It's my firm belief that these people will >NEVER< be compensated for what
the government has done to them; the wrongs they have suffered at it's
whim.  The people directly responsible will be allowed to continue 
their reign of terror with the full knowledge and approval of their 
employers......

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?  It's the old idea of "you must have done
something wrong, even though we can't prove it, so we're going to fine you
this piece of property EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE, UNDER THE LAW, INNOCENT".

Now, is the problem one of the electronic frontier?  I think not.

The problem with focusing the attention in one place is that it misses 
the mark.  You treat the symptoms rather than the disease.  As long as 
the disease runs it's course, the situation gets worse and worse.  Oh 
sure, perhaps we can get a "by" this time in the electronic frontier --
but not for long.  

This problem has to be stopped AT THE SOURCE.  Legislation has to be
introduced, pushed and passed that strengthens the individual's rights
against our marauding government.  Jurors everywhere need education so as
to find people "NOT GUILTY" when they have committed no crime.  People need 
to be educated so that they will demand and have that jury trial and be 
acquitted.  Pre-trial seizure of assets, in ALL facets of society, has to 
be outlawed without exception.  Just recompense needs to be made available,
at the expense of the individuals who promulgated and facilitated
these harassment cases, to the victims of government "strong-arm" tactics.

These changes will make a difference.

Nothing less will change the path we are on.  To profess otherwise is to
miss the forest for the tree.  The forest is closing in around all of us in
the USA.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 808-7300], Voice: [+1 708 808-7200]
Macro Computer Solutions, Inc.   "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"