Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith and Works Message-ID: Date: 9 Jan 91 07:33:53 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 120 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: >Paul and James are in complete harmony with each other. Complete harmony. >James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James >says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith >by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, >not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will be based on our works. >What is so important about works before men? It reveals whether or >not the faith is living faith or claimed (dead) faith. Anyone can >claim to have faith: > While what you say is true, it is more important that we our own selfs realize that if we have no works, then we not only fool others, but most importantly we fool our own self, and even more importantly we try to fool God. It is a hypocrisy to say that I belive in Jesus Christ and then I do not engage in good works at all. If I am correct, hypocrisy was the most often mentioned sin by Jesus. > >Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. The judgement will be based on what I have done. >"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. One of the most important verse in James is the following: James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" What James is clearly teaching is that faith and good works are intertwined. There is a relationship between the two of them which is not understood by many, that is that, we perfect our faith through good works. Not only that, but we are justified by our work also, besides our faith. He says that faith is "wrought" (formed, shaped or made) by works. This is an important principle which has not been taught by many who preach salvation by "faith only", and misslead many who believes that the only thing they have to do is to say that they accepted Christ. Faith and good works are the two different sides of the same coin. You can't have either one of them without the other. One of the problems is that we want to reduce everything to a one or a zero. The fact is that the gospel and truth is multi dimensional. One of the most often used trap is when someone suggest that there are only two possible answer to a question, a yes or a no, when in fact there is at least one more. This is what happens with the question of, those good works save? >I wonder why people always say Paul and James disagree. Get this >and mark it down. > you are right, they don't disagree, but they do discribe a different side of the same coin. There are many contridictions in the scriptures for those who want to bring down the key for the salvation to a very simple answer, like that if you have faith, you are saved. Didn't Paul himself said the following? I Corint 13:13 ************** "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." How can it be that charity (love) is greater then faith? Isn't salvation come only by faith, and by no other means? How can then love be greater then faith? I guess that there are too many who are the followers of Paul, and many only of those teachings of Paul which happens to fit a particular theological point of view. Paul himself warned against this. And Peter gave a warning regarding Paul's teachings when he said the following about it: II Peter 3:16 ------------- "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are somethings hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." We need to be very careful not to misunderstand what Paul was trying to teach. There was a problem with this already during the time he was still alive. We need to read all of the things which are written about a given subject, because that is the only way we can understand the whole truth. What Paul taught about faith must be understood with what James taught about it, otherwise we may get a distorted picture. However, even if we read all of the things which Paul taught about faith and good works, one may also get the correct picture. > >Both James and Paul describe a QUALITY of saving faith - obedience. > Obedience is good works. > >-- > Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu > Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY > University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz > Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403 With brotherly love, Frank