Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod!wuarchive!psuvax1!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith and Works Message-ID: Date: 15 Jan 91 09:37:59 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 71 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu This is a comment on the value of our works in God's Judgement. For a brief background: In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > In article , bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: >>James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James >>says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith >>by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, >>not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, > is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will > be based on our works. >>Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. > The judgement will be based on what I have done. >>"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >>boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. Frank has in interesting way of saying that the explicit words of Scripture are 'rationalization'. Now let me answer some of his points. Q: Does God know our works? A: Of course he does! And this is what he said about them through Isaiah: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" --Isaiah 64:6. What does Scripture say about the Judgement day? In Rev 20:11-15 we read that 'books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ...If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' I conclude that our works only convict us of sin. Only Christ's redemption saves us; through that redemption our names are written in the book of life. > II Peter 3:16 > ------------- > "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are > somethings hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable > wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Frank has harped on this passage several time, as if by it the whole gospel is set aside. But as I believe that all of Scripture is insired by God, so I cannot believe that Peter intended to nullify Paul's statement that we are justified by faith, apart from the law, and that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works (Romans 3:38 and Ephesians 2:8,9). First of all, Peter does not say just which of Paul's teachings were being distorted. Possibly some people were distorting Paul's teachings to say that we are saved by faith without works, so that we can sin as much as we like, and still be saved through faith. I have heard things like this said in defense of homosexuality. But Paul never said this, and Luther never said it either. Paul himself said: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" --Romans 6:1 Note that Paul reasons that our desire to avoid sin is a *result* of our salvation, that we 'died to sin'. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran.