Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!christian From: bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith and Works Message-ID: Date: 16 Jan 91 09:13:17 GMT Sender: hedrick@aramis.rutgers.edu Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh. Lines: 178 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > In article , bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: > >Paul and James are in complete harmony with each other. Complete harmony. > >James emphasis in James 2:14-26 is works BEFORE MEN. In James 2:18 James > >says "Show ME your faith without deeds and I will show YOU my faith > >by what I do". The emphasis all throughout here is works before men, > >not before God. > This is a strange thing to say! You mean that my work, or the lack of it, > is apparent only to men and not to God? I thaught that the judgement will > be based on our works. Yikes, is that what the paragraph above says? I was talking about James *emphasis*. You drew a conclusion for me which is not my own. Please be careful. Rev 20:11-15 talks about the judgment "according to everything that we do". Paul says the same thing in Romans 2:13. "It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Faith MUST NECESSARILY PRODUCE WORKS. Yes, they are two sides of the same coin. And that coin is a GIFT WE DO NOT EARN. Our ability to do good works is a GIFT which is not earned. One definition of grace is "God's Riches At Christ's Expense." Part of God's "riches" is the ability to do his will, which is the objective proof both before God and man that we are his own. BUT, proof is just that, proof of a reality. That reality is salvation, the works are its proof. Both salvation and the works are part and parcel of this thing we call a gift. If we accept a package labeled salvation but the contents do not include "the ability to do good works", that package did not come from Him. > While what you say is true, it is more important that we our own selfs > realize that if we have no works, then we not only fool others, but most > importantly we fool our own self, and even more importantly we try to fool > God. It is a hypocrisy to say that I belive in Jesus Christ and then I do > not engage in good works at all. I completely agree with what you say here Frank. > >Paul's emphasis in Romans 4 is BEFORE GOD, not BEFORE MEN: > I don't buy this at all. All my actions are before God at all times. > The judgement will be based on what I have done. Sure they are. So what? That doesn't change Paul's *emphasis* of this passage. Please note: I am not saying that faith can produce 0 works. God too will at judgment produce the record of our works that necessarily must come as a result of accepting his GIFT of salvation (the gift which comes as Paul puts it in Romans 4 "apart from works"). There is a BIG BIG difference between saying that works MUST RESULT from salvation and saying that works is a prerequisite for it. In fact if we rely on "keeping the Law" for salvation, we are cursed. Look at Galatians Chapter 3: "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?...I would like to learn just one thing from you (sarcasm): Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?...Does God give you his Spirit ...because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?...[10] All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law. [11] Clearly no one is justifed BEFORE GOD by the law. From Chapter 2: [15] "We know ... that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, BECAUSE BY OBSERVING THE LAW NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED. Let then say this very carefully: Observing the law is the objective PROOF that we HAVE BEEN justified, not a prerequisite for justification. Is that clear? In fact the most often quoted verse in this thread must be Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith - AND THIS IS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God - NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast". This makes it very very clear that our salvation is not dependent upon our works. What is just as clear is that our works do RESULT from this salvation for the very next verse reads: "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God has prepared in advance for us to do." > >"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to > >boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > This is pure rationalization. One of the most important verse in James is > the following: > James 2:21-22 > ============= > "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" > "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" I must ask, WHO is seeing the works in James 22? That passage you quoted further illustrates what I was trying to say. The first two words, "Seest thou" or in the NIV "YOU SEE" are references to MAN seeing the works. (Yes, God does see them too) > What James is clearly teaching is that faith and good works are intertwined. > There is a relationship between the two of them which is not understood > by many, that is that, we perfect our faith through good works. Not only > that, but we are justified by our work also, besides our faith. He says that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ When one tries to discern whether or not a certain color is darker that another, it is beneficial to look at the one color then other back to back, several times. This method of discernment is in order here. Read the underlined sentence above, then read Ephesians 2:8-9 back to back. Read the underlined sentence above, then read Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace". > have either one of them without the other. One of the problems is that > we want to reduce everything to a one or a zero. The fact is that the gospel > and truth is multi dimensional. One of the most often used trap is when > someone suggest that there are only two possible answer to a question, a yes > or a no, when in fact there is at least one more. Jesus did "reduce it to a one or a zero". There are TWO gates that lead to TWO destinations. There are only two religions in the world really. The religions of Human Achievement (man tries to work his way to God) and the religion of Divine Accomplishment (Christianity). We are either in Cain's line or Abel's. We either resort to "sewing fig leaves" (good works) to cover our sin: GEN 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. or we can let God clothe us with HIS righteousness (not ours): GEN 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. > "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of > these is charity." > How can it be that charity (love) is greater then faith? Isn't salvation > come only by faith, and by no other means? How can then love be greater > then faith? Because salvation exists only because of love! Because love made faith possible! It was Christ's love that gave us an object of faith! Without love, there is no salvation! Without love, there is nothing to have faith in! "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" - Galatians 2:21 Did Christ die for nothing? Of course not. He died because of his LOVE for us. That LOVE was manifest in his obedience to death on the cross. His LOVE in our lives is manifest by our good works, not earned by them. His LOVE doesn't come that cheap. Our salvation can only be made possible by the blood of Christ. And by God's grace I will preach that blood until the day I die. EPH 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. This is the only way we can draw nigh to God. Trying any other way would be like trying to run up the side of Mt. Sinai. For the Glory of God and the Lamb, -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403