Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!spool2.mu.edu!uwm.edu!wuarchive!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Is the Bible 100% correct? Message-ID: Date: 16 Jan 91 09:31:08 GMT Sender: hedrick@aramis.rutgers.edu Lines: 107 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) writes: >CONS.ELF@AIDA.CSD.UU.SE (Ake Eldberg) writes: >And it's not really fair to blame such a belief on Sola Scriptura. The >only place that I can think of the even comes close to saying such a >thing is the end of Mark. But even that passage doesn't say that >the unbaptized are damned. It says, ``Whoever believes and is >baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be >condemned.'' (Mark 16:16) One who believes but is not baptized isn't >covered here. Add to that the fact that Mark 16:9-20 doesn't appear in >the oldest manuscripts, and you'd be on very shaky ground trying to >claim authoritatively from this passage that baptism is required for >salvation. > I believe that you are incorrect about your statement that Mark 16:16 doesn't cover "one who believes but is not baptized". In fact, it says that to be saved one must believe *and* must be baptised. Which means that the person who believes and is not baptised is *not saved*. The second half of the verse simply states the oposite, that a person who don't believe is damned. Baptism is not an issue in this case because baptism is worthless without faith. Your arguement that Mark 16:16 doesn't exist in earlier manuscript means that we can ignor it is questionable in my opinion. Besides, the requirement for baptism is not only supported by Mark 16:16. Let me give you a few others: John 3:5 ======== "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto the, Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus clearly teaches that baptism by water and by the spirit is a requirement for entry into the kingdom of God. Acts 2:37-38 ============ "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and bretheren, what shall we do?" "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." They had faith after they heard Peter, but they wanted to know what they should do. The answer is precise and clear. Peter answers that: 1. They must repent 2. Be baptized for the remission of their sins and that they may receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no promise that a person may receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without faith, repentence and baptism. The big question is, what would have happened to one who would have said that, I have faith and that is sufficient for my salvation, therefore, I don't have to repent nor do I have to be baptised, because repentence and baptism are works and works do not save? Would he be saved? It is clear from the scriptures that to be saved one must: 1. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. 2. Repent as a precondition for baptism. 3. Be baptised. 4. Receive the laying on of the hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. 4. Receive baptism with fire and the Holy Ghost. >Baptism is a *very* important part of the faith, and is done as a >testimony to one's faith. But the *only* requirement for salvation is >faith in Christ. > That is not what Mark 16:16 says, it is not what Jesus said to Nicodemus, and this is not what Peter said to those who have heard him, and as a direct result had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Additional food for thaught. Jesus who was sinless was baptised by John the Baptist. John resisted at first and used the arguement that Jesus should baptise him and not the other way around. Jesus didn't disagree, however, he told John that it should be done to fulfill all righteousness. Now, if Jesus who was sinless was baptised to fulfill all righteousness, how much more we sinners need to be baptised. Jesus showed the way a man may be saved and I for one will not intellectualize away the requirements he has set. >And don't let anybody tell you otherwise. :^) > >-- >Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, >uunet!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. >geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV) With brotherly love, Frank [The case against Mk 16:16 being part of the original document is quite convincing. You might want to clarify the exact implications of your position. This is the position normally associated with the Catholics. But they make provisions for unusual cases, where there was not time or opportunity for baptism, with concepts such as "baptism of desire". --clh]