Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith and Works Message-ID: Date: 20 Jan 91 19:24:18 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 162 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes: >This is a comment on the value of our works in God's Judgement. For a brief >background: > >In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >> In article , bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: > >>>"If in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to >>>boast about-BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." > >> This is pure rationalization. > >Frank has in interesting way of saying that the explicit words of Scripture >are 'rationalization'. Let me quote some "explicit words of the scriptures". Here is the quote from James one more time (I believe that what James wrote is also scripture). James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Can you please let me know what this means, if you find my interpretation, which I gave, incorrect? However, please abide by the rule you set so the "explicit words of the scriptures" will not be violated. > Now let me answer some of his points. > >Q: Does God know our works? >A: Of course he does! And this is what he said about them through Isaiah: > >"All of us have become like one who is unclean, > and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;" >--Isaiah 64:6. > >What does Scripture say about the Judgement day? In Rev 20:11-15 we read >that 'books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. >The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. >...If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into >the lake of fire.' > >I conclude that our works only convict us of sin. Only Christ's redemption >saves us; through that redemption our names are written in the book of life. > If what you say is in fact true, you have made null the words of Jesus. Again, here are some "explicit words of Scripture", and I hope that you don't mind if I gave it priority over the rationalization and justification of man, for we do strange things to justify our theology. Matthew 5:16 ============ "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:17-20 ============ "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:21 ************ "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 25:34-46 (quoting only verses 34-36) ========================================== "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger and ye took me in:" "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." You have also made null the teachings of the apostles Paul (and others too): Romans 2:6-8 ============ "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," Romans 2:13 *********** "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Gal 6:7 ******* "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he reap." Now, let me tell you that there is no contradiction between what Paul said that we are saved by grace true faith, and that not the hearers only, but the doers of the law are justified. I believe that our problems are that we are using the same words and we mean different things by it. Most Christians who believe in "one heaven and one hell", meaning that all who will receive punishment will receive the same punishment and all who receive salvation will receive the same reward. This is not Biblical at all. Salvation can come by grace only. I am condemned to death because I am sinful, for the penalty for sin is death. Because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, resurrection is a free gift to all, both the good and the bad. Salvation is also a gift to all who believes in Chist. Salvation means that we won't be cast out, as long as we won't commit the unpardonable sin. Exaltation on the other hand has to be earned. This is the reason did Jesus and all of the writers of the Bible taught the importance of good works. Paul clearly taught that not all will be resurrected to the same glory. I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Jesus himself said that there are many mensions in his Father's house. John 14:2 ========= "In my fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go prepare a place for you." This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. However, one will receive the glory which is comparable to the glory of the sun and another will receive glory which is comparable to the glory of the faintest star in the heavens. This plan which was taught by Paul is a just plan. Jesus did for us which we couldn't do for our own self, and we will receive our reward based on our works. This speaks well of the mercy and the justice of our God. > >David H. Wagner >a confessional Lutheran. With brotherly love, Frank