Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Will 'All of Israel' be Saved? Message-ID: Date: 22 Jan 91 06:22:58 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 24 Approved: christian@geneva.rutgers.edu Yaakov Kayman: Not merely unlikely. It simply will never happen! Get it straight: NO practicing Jew denies Messiah. ALL practicing Jews Deny that J____ is a messiah. David Wagner: The true Israel is the Israel of faith in C_____, the Christian church. I fear this discussion has gone as far as it can usefully go. We have here two position that I believe simply can't communicate. It seems that Yaakov's statement is true by definition. There are certainly people who otherwise meet the criteria of being Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. However Orthodox Judaism says as a matter of definition that anyone who has accepted Christ is not a Jew. David's position is also one that -- while certainly based on NT grounds -- can hardly be useful in a discussion of this sort. He is using Israel here in a somewhat metaphorical sense, to refer to those people who part of God's covenant as he sees it. Just as Yaakov excludes Jewish Christians from being Jews by definition, David excludes non-Christian Jews from being part of the true Israel. While such language can be useful within the Church to emphasize the continuity in God's covenant, it is hard to image anything more likely to lead to misunderstanding and ill will in discussions with Jews.