Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Faith and Works:(Was Re: priesthood) Message-ID: Date: 22 Jan 91 07:02:07 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 89 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > I would like to tell you that I do believe that I am a Christian who holds > that Jesus is the Christ. That there is no salvation except for the > great atoning sacrifice of Christ. Jesus is my savior and my Lord. > If you define a Christian as one who believes in the various doctrines > as you do (i.e. the predestination), then I clearly don't meet your > defination. On the other hand most others of the various Christian > denominations don't either. I wrote: >>Really, the differences between us have to do with more important issues. > I sure would like to find out what is it which troubles you about > my faith, and comes in the way of meaningful communication. Since the > Moderator doesn't believe that any leghty discussion of the LDS believes > are timely, I did offer that we could exchange some private communications. The chief issue is really that of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, versus salvation that depends somewhat on works. In our exchange of articles and e-mail you seem to keep wanting to take credit for something that you have contributed to your own salvation. You justify this by saying that this is the only way God can be a just God, and not capricious and arbitrary. I say that the scriptures teach that we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, that apart from the saving Gospel we would all be dead in our transgressions and sins. This is true of *all* of us, from the smallest infant to the eldest. Without faith in Christ we are only objects of God's wrath; that is all we *deserve*. And this in fact is why people die. Someone without sin can of course be murdered, as Jesus was, but in general death is the wages of sin, and death is also the evidence that we all are guilty of sin. "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." --Romans 5:12 Though the "wages of sin is death," "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord", Rom 3:23. What could make it more clear that the only thing we can earn by our works is death, but that God can and does give us eternal life? Even faith itself is a gift of God, Eph 2:8,9. We cannot take credit for our faith, and turn it into our own work. But you take this, and say that I am teaching a predestination to damnation. By so doing you are putting words into my mouth, because I flatly deny any predestination to damnation. The scriptures clearly teach that God wants all men to be saved, 1 Tim 2:4, but that some men resist the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51. Perhaps the simplest summary of 'predestination' is this: If we are saved, it is God's work, for he chose us for this before the creation of the world, Eph 1:4. If we reject the Gospel and remain dead in our transgressions and sins, it is our own fault. As I have said many times, I do not deny the importance of works. They are a necessay fruit, or result, of faith. But works do not save us. I believe that the above paragraphs summarize the very heart of the Gospel. There are a number of other issues that divide us, but this is the most important. A christian is one who trusts only in God's grace, in Christ's atonement, for his salvation, and does not trust in any of his works. I believe that christians are present wherever the means of grace, word and sacrament, are in use, for God says : "As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." --Isaiah 55:10-11. So I believe that christians are present in any number of churches where the word is preached, even if they must sometimes exist in opposition to the doctrine that is preached. However, on the basis of scripture, I cannot practice fellowship with those who openly confess to false doctrine, that is, doctrine that is contrary to scripture. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. Free Lithuania! My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.