Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!lll-winken!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Will 'All of Israel' be Saved? Message-ID: Date: 22 Jan 91 07:29:01 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 77 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: >In article farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: David writes regarding what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-27: > >Did Paul really expect that some day all of the Jews will be saved? I doubt >that this is the case. Much text deleted. >The true Israel is the Israel of faith in Christ, the Christian church. >I think that by 'all Israel' here what Paul intends is all of God's elect >who believe in him, now, or in the future or past. I think he made this >clear when he wrote: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until >the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Rom 11:25) Thus 'all >Israel' is a reference, first of all, to 'the full number of the Gentiles', >and secondly to the remnant of the Jews that believe in Christ--which remnant >included Paul himself, and the other apostles. It may be the the 'hardening >in part' of the Jews will be softened at some point in the future. But I >don't particularly expect all of them to be converted. I'm not even sure >what that would mean, since the definition of 'who is a Jew' is either very >legalistic or very vague. First of all, I don't know which translation you are quoting from. I don't believe that, "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" is a correct translation. May be a Greek expert can help us out with this. I believe that the more correct translation is "until the fulness of the gentlies be come in". In either case, I believe that you badly misinterpreting what Paul is talking about. He *is* talking to the converted gentiles about the house of Israel, the literal descendents of Jacob. you need to read the entire chapter. I don't understand your comment regarding the truthfulness of what Paul said in Romans 11. Can you please explain? It is apparent that you are not familiar with the great promisses which has has been given to the house of Israel by the Lord. his covenant with them is still in effect. In fact, you are commiting the same error as the converted gentiles did during Paul's time, to whom he wrote the following: Romans 11:25-27 ================ "For I would not brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." "And all of Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." I do recommend that you study the Bible regarding the great promisses which were made to the house of Israel (the literal descendents of Jacob). Just about every O.T. prophet had spoke of if. If you would like, I could send you a list of references. >David H. Wagner >a confessional Lutheran. With brotherly love, Frank ["full number" is in the NRSV. The word is "pleroma". It has a variety of meanings covering totality, fullness, etc. It could more literally be translated "a full measure of Gentiles", which could mean either all of them or all of some particular set. You probably want to use "full number" rather than "fulness" simply as a matter of English style, since people are discrete objects that are counted. The word was used in secular writing to refer to things like a fully laden ship or a crowd of people, but could also have the implication of totality. "The full number of.." seems to be a calculated ambiguity which reflects an ambiguity in the Greek. The question is whether it is all Gentiles or all Gentiles that are going to be saved. (By the way, I have not suddenly acquired expertise in Greek, but a new reference book - the concise edition of Kittel's theological dictionary of the NT -- concise in the sense of being only 1300 pages of fine print.) --clh]