Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!apple!uokmax!d.cs.okstate.edu!unx2.ucc.okstate.edu!minich
From: minich@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu (Robert Minich)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: System 7.0 vs. NeXT Step
Message-ID: <1991Jan23.204448.23778@unx2.ucc.okstate.edu>
Date: 23 Jan 91 20:44:48 GMT
References: <11468@helios.TAMU.EDU>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center
Lines: 102

by n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent Burton):
| NeXTStep or UNIX(mach)? NeXTStep is the INTERFACE, MACH(unix) is the op sys.

But the Mac GUI and Opsys are intimately linked. Many people without
experience on UNIX type boxes don't understand this. ("X is NOT an
interface...")

| Will 7.0 have links to files and directories (false copies)?

Yes.

| Pipes?

No. Pipes don't make a lot of sense without stdin and stdout, do
they? :-) When was the last time you had an X program at the head of
a pipe?

| Sockets?  It's supposed to have inter-process communication, but we'll
| have to see how Apple does the 'Application Communication' Manager.

Well, I don't think Apple will provide the BSD sockets interface. However,
there is MacTCP, which supports all the standard TCP/IP functionality in a
way that is more natural to Macs. The IPC in sys 7 is not, to my limited
knowledge, just a plain old copy of something created earlier. Maybe a
certified developer with all the Apple goodies (Inside Mac VI) can comment.
 
|>The only big plus that I can tell is that
|>it won't be nearly as large as Unix(another plus might be that it
|>isn't Unix :-))
|
| It's too bad 7.0 isn't unix.  I'd rather have unix on my plus than the
| native MacOS.

Not me. Maybe a UNIX-like kernal but no UNIX. I want demand paging, virtual
memory (not necessarily equivalent), X, etc. etc. That's an awful lot to ask
from a Plus.  Maybe my SE/30, though. :-)
 
|>However, NeXT is shipping machines with 8 megs of
|>memory and the 68040 chip, so this kind of makes of for the fact that
|>Unix is a CPU and memory sucking hog.
| 
| Not really.  The more memory you have the less paging the OS has to do
| (if it even supports VM, i.e., NOT macOS by design) and therefore, no
| I/O = quicker, sometimes significantly quicker, performance.
|   UNIX by itself is NOT such a large system.  When additions are made,
| it does enlarge, but that's understandable(just like adding INITs and
| cdevs to a Mac).  Some UNIX kernels I have
| seen were 450K in size (some are considerably larger, i.e., 1.3M, and
| others are considerably smaller, 118K (for MINIX)).  The smallest 
| system file I have ever had has been ~300K, and actual memory usage
| (RAM) of the MacOS system is typically 250K on my Plus; sometimes 400K.

Well, the kernel is the least of my worries. I _want_ all the goodies that
take up gobs of memory like an interface. On the NeXT, the display is
drawn with PostScript which is not exactly known as being a memory
miser. 8MB on a NeXT _is_ a minimum and users have found the 16MB is
much more comfortable for using more than one or two programs at a
time. With my 5MB SE/30, I commonly have 5+ programs all going at the
same time, including memory hogging graphics. (Not color, though.)
 
| I think the MacOS, for everything that is _built_in_ to ROMs, is the
| 'memory sucking hog.'  128K ROM (Mac Plus) + 400K RAM ==> 528K =
| This 528K is a large amount of memory to be using compared with the
| stock machine. (Actually, 400K/1024K is more appropriate -. ~40%).
| On a NeXT machine with 8M RAM, I seriously doubt if the MACH kernel
| occupies 3.5Megs.

Hmm. I'm logged into a DEC box that has one active user (me) running a
news reader and vi. The system is otherwise quiescent. The active vm is
currently 7.6MB and I'm not running goodies like X or anything. Now my
Mac is running in under 2MB of space with much of that going unused by
the programs. (This "wasted" space is a sore point IMHO.)
  I don't think it's reasonable to figure ROM under the category of
memory hogging. Actually, the MacOS provides the equivalent of a
dynamicly linked library shared by all applications. The fact that
some stuff sits in ROM is of no real consequence. Think of it as a
fast disk on a UNIX machine. Hmm. How much disk space does your
average UNIX box with a good windowing system and a bunch of apps
take? More than my humble 40MB, I bet. I've got a couple compilers, a
few general productivity apps, tons of PD stuff. It's been my
experience that UNIX apps tend to swell up with library code. Sure,
the newer offerings have shared libraries, but those machines aren't
usually the cheapest ones available.

| For an example of a small unix system that is *quite* usable, see the
| AT&T 3B1.  Some models of it have 2M RAM, 40M hard drive and have a
| complete UNIX system (including development tools).  It even has a
| windowing system and virtual memory.  [it runs a M 68010 chip.]

See below!

| I have owned a Mac Plus for 4 years.  I like Macintosh, but after
| using UNIX with X, I prefer UNIX.  It's too bad I can't afford a
| NeXT, or other workstation. :-)

Bingo. You and many many others. Hmm, I bet if you watch
misc.forsale.computers, you'll find a few 3B1s every now and then.
They are fully functional systems albeit slow. (At this school, they
are used for vt100 terminals. :-)) The prices are usually pretty darn
low. Go ahead and see if you like it. I'll save my $$$ for something a
little more suited to my needs and, more importantly, lustful
desires.