Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Faith and Works Message-ID: Date: 24 Jan 91 08:24:35 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 270 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: > Let me quote some "explicit words of the scriptures". > > Here is the quote from James one more time (I believe that what James wrote > is also scripture). > > James 2:21-22 > ============= > "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made > perfect?" I too believe that this is scripture inspired by God. The question is, since it obviously appears to contradict Paul's clear teaching, then how do we understand it? The clear context is given by James in ch 2, verse 20: "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" James is preaching against those who think they can be saved by and empty faith that produces no works. He cites the example of Abraham's obedience when he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. He says: "...his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' " This statement, 'Abraham believed God', (Gen 15:6) was made long before Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac. Paul even mentions that this statement was made even befor Abraham was circumcised. So Abraham stood justified before God long before this great work cited by James. So in what sense did his works make his faith perfect? In light of what Paul clearly says concerning justification by faith apart from works, I have to conclude that Abraham's faith was strengthened through this test. He was brought closer to God. And just as Abraham showed such great faith that he was willing to obey God to the point of sacrificing his own son, so too would God be faithful in his promise to send his only begotten son to suffer death to save us from our sins. Abraham's obedience also means that we know what sort of faith he had. His faith was one that produced works -- and so should ours. This is exactly what James is talking about. > If what you say is in fact true, you have made null the words of Jesus. > Again, here are some "explicit words of Scripture", and I hope that you > don't mind if I gave it priority over the rationalization and justification > of man, for we do strange things to justify our theology. > > Matthew 5:16 > ============ > "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and > glorify your Father which is in heaven." > > Matt 7:17-20 > ============ > "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree > bringeth forth evil fruit." > > "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring > forth good fruit." > > "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into > the fire." > > "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." None of these talk about salvation. In fact the last sentence summarizes the meaning clearly: by their fruits shall you know a christian. But God knows our hearts, and he knows our faith. Since we cannot know people's hearts, we can only deal with them according to their confession of faith and their works. > Matthew 7:21 > ************ > "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom > of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." > > Matt 25:34-46 (quoting only verses 34-36) > ========================================== > "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my > Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the > world:" > > "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me > drink: I was a stranger and ye took me in:" > > "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, > and ye came unto me." I've dealt with this passage previously, but to summarize: Jesus holds forth the works of the believers, works which they do not even know they have done, as an example to the unbelievers to show they are justly condemned. > You have also made null the teachings of the apostles Paul (and others too): > > Romans 2:6-8 > ============ > "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient > continuance in well doing seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal > life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but > obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," > > Romans 2:13 > *********** > "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers > of the law shall be justified." Again, these passages simply state that God is a just God. But none of us are 'doers of the law', none of our deeds deserve eternal life. Acting purely out of grace, God inflicted the punishment we deserve on Christ. So the sin is still punished, but out of grace it will not fall on us. In fact Paul clearly summarizes this section of Romans in Rom 3:9-20, where he starts with: "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God'..." And he concludes with: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, wo that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous [justified] in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." That summarizes the whole point of Romans 1:18-3:8. It is pure law, preached for the point of convincing us that our works cannot save us. Then he begins with the gospel: "But now a righteousness *from God*, *apart from law*, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." > Gal 6:7 > ******* > "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, > that shall he reap." Again, this is not talking about justification, but about sanctification; it encourages the believer to do good works. > Salvation can come by grace only. I am condemned to death because I am > sinful, for the penalty for sin is death. Because of the atoning sacrifice > of Christ, resurrection is a free gift to all, both the good and the bad. > Salvation is also a gift to all who believes in Chist. Salvation means > that we won't be cast out, as long as we won't commit the unpardonable sin. To some this may sound close to a christian message, but there are several errors. First, the scriptures teach that *salvation* is a free gift, Ephesians 2:8,9. There is a resurrection of both believers (the good) and unbelievers (the bad). This was revealed long ago to Daniel, to whom it was said: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2 But for the unbeliever, I do not think that a resurrection to "everlasting shame and contempt" is a gift! :-) Also Jesus says of the judgement day: "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." -- Matt 25:32 And he says of the goats: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" --Matt 25:46 > Exaltation on the other hand has to be earned. This is the reason did Jesus > and all of the writers of the Bible taught the importance of good > works. Paul clearly taught that not all will be resurrected to the same > glory. Could you explain to me where it is written that we must earn some level of 'exaltation'? I would say that in many places Jesus taught the law to convict us of sin, e.g., 'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.' This shows us that we cannot earn our salvation, that we need Christ's redemption. Likewise he said: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Matt 5:20 Indeed, the only righteousness that is of any use at all is Christ's. In other places Christ urged us in sanctification so that we can be effective witnesses to him: 'Let your light shine before men, that they may see you good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.' He did not say 'that you may earn a better salvation'. > I Corint 15:41-42 > ***************** > "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and > another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star > in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Here, I am afraid you are clearly distorting the meaning of the text. Paul is not saying there are different levels of salvation, but he is contrasting our mortal bodies with our mortal ones. For he continues this passage with: "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." So just as one God can make a moon, and a sun, and huge numbers of stars, all different, yet all physical bodies, so at the resurrection we will have a physical body, which is truly 'ours', yet imperishable and glorious. > > John 14:2 > ========= > "In my fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told > you. I go prepare a place for you." I have to agree that there is room enough for all of us. How else can you possible interpret this statement? > This is what the judgement is all about. Those who have rejected Christ and > commited the unpardonable sin will be cast out, all others will be saved. Depending on how you define 'unpardonable sin' and 'cast out', this might be close to a christian message. But rejecting Christ must mean not believing in him; the unpardonable sin is the same. The 'sin against the Holy Spirit' is a complete rejection of Christ by one who has been a believer, Hebrews 6:4-6; they are lost also. To be 'cast out' means to be cast in to the eternal Lake of Fire; Rev 20:10-15, Matt 25:41,46. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "The Law commands and makes us know What duties to our God we owe; But 'tis the Gospel must reveal Where lies our strength to do His will. "The Law discovers guilt and sin And shows how vile our hearts have been; The Gospel only canb express Forgiving love and cleansing grace. "What curses dotht the Law denounce Against the man that fails but once! But in the Gospel Christ appears, Pard'ning the guilt of num'rous years. "My soul no more attempt to draw The life and comfort from the Law. Fly to the hope the Gospel gives; The man that trusts the promise lives." --"The Law Commands and Makes Us Know" --Isaac Watts, 1709 --(Tune: Old Hundredth) --from "The Lutheran Hymnal" #289 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.