Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Why do the nations rage? Message-ID: Date: 24 Jan 91 08:39:10 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 91 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article lindborg@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) writes: >In article ROBERT@kontu.utu.fi (Robert W. Johnson) writes: >>Why do the nations rage? Psalm 2.1. [ comments on text of Psalm 2 deleted ] >here we see the basic case of "why nations rage." This type of intolerant >nonsense it exactly what causes unrest and strife in the world. The main problem that I have with your statement is your implication that an explanation of why 'the nations rage' is linked with intolerance. I'm a Christian. I believe in what it says in Psalm 2. Yet, if I'm intolerant, why am I listening to a Pink Floyd CD while I write this? > I would >like to point out just how incredibly violent and opressive the Christian >Church has been thoughout its history (from the time of Constantine, through >the middle ages and up to the Religious Wars). We see a group of people, who >think like you do, and view those around them as being less than 'holy' and >worthy, apparently, of death. The problem I have with this argument is that it assumes that the actions of a group of people that called themselves a church really represents what Christianity is about. First, what the Bible actually says about how you should treat others: (Matthew 5:43-44) You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy,' but I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. (Luke 6:31-32,37) And just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. And if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them...And do not judge and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. And, the Bible explaining that some people seem to follow God but do not: (Matthew 15:3,7-9) And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves [ the Pharisees -- the church institution of the time ] transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? ... You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'" What I'm saying is that the church was not following God when they did what they did. They were using it as an excuse to do something _they_ wanted to do. > I contest that, if there were no religion at all, the prospects of peace >would be much more likely... and I'm not alone. I suggest reading Bertrand >Russels "Why I'm Not a Christian" and selsections from "An Inquiery into Truth >and Meaning." for a clearer explanation. I submit that if all those who spoke as if they were Christians really acted like Christians, people would be beating down the doors to get in to churches. Well, it's late and this has gotten long, so I'm gonna get going. Hope this makes some sense to ya... >"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." > Robert Heinline > >Jeff Lindborg >"Agnostic with an attitude." -- =----------------Logan-Shaw---(lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)----------------= "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not on thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him and he shall direct thy paths" - Proverbs 3:5-6 [This is a common answer, and probably right as far as it goes. But I think in all honesty there is some evidence that Christianity itself -- at least in the form it is normally taught -- does tend to lead to intolerance. Indeed I think many Christians find it hard to come up with a Christian justification for tolerance. If you believe that non-Christians are going to hell, you *shouldn't* tolerate non-Christian beliefs. It's not clear to me that there is any Christian justification for trying to build a neutral, pluralistic society other than the practical issue that all attempts to mandate a "Christian" nation seem to lead to disaster -- such disaster that Chritians find themselves fleeing to Moslem countries to avoid persecution by other Christians (as did happen in Europe at times). This does not mean that Christianity needs to lead persecution, murder, war, etc. These things can be shown to be wrong on Biblical grounds. But I'd be interested to see a Christian definition of and justification for tolerance in a wider sense. --clh]