Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!agate!shelby!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Baptism a Work? (Was: Re: Exposing Jew-baiting) Message-ID: Date: 29 Jan 91 08:12:59 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 74 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I write: > In article , dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: >> Catholics are in complete agreement here. Protestants, as I >> understand it, believe that the gift of salvation in Baptism must be >> accepted to be considered valid; in other words, an action on the part >> of the believer (acceptance) is required for the Baptism to be valid. >> Catholics believe that Baptism is an absolutely free and unconditional >> gift of love from God. That's sort of a twist on the faith/works >> issue wherein Protestants usually take the opposite stance. David responds: In article , math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes: > Well, Lutherans certainly believe that baptism and conversion are > completely God's work and not our own. However I have the distinct > impression that Roman Catholics (officially) teach that conversion > is a cooperative effort between the individual and God. Corrections > and comments are certainly welcome! Yet I am glad to see Cindy saying > something very Lutheran and Scriptural about Baptism. "Charis" is a Greek word meaning favor; the word "eucharist" is derived from it. The following is true for all people: Jesus did me a favor: He died on the Cross for my sins. God did me another favor: He raised this Man Jesus from the dead so that I might believe. God loves me. He gave me my salvation. Salvation is like plunging into drinking water, body and soul, drinking and gulping the water, and yet still being able to breathe, even while completely immersed in an ocean of salvation and God's love. Salvation is like slavation, complete submissal to the will of God. Salvation is being given a fish, fresh from the water of life, chopping off its head, splitting it down the middle, seeing its internal redness, cooking it in a hot frying pan, smelling its goodness and its sweetness, and it eating it humbly and gently and with great reverence. Salvation is God's gift to me, God's favor. We enjoy God's favor. Salvation from God yields slavation to God; slavation to God helps us participate in our salvation from God. Prayer is God's way of allowing us to participate in God's actions on our behalf; prayer to the saints is God's way of allowing God's saints to participate in God's actions on our behalf. God doesn't need our prayers; we need our prayers to God to help us participate in God's actions in our hearts and in our lives. Similarly, good works and obedience to the commandments are God's way of allowing us to participate in our own salvation, in fear and trembling. God does not need our good works and obedience; we need our good works and obedience to help us participate in God's salvation history. God's grace is God's greatest gift, God's greatest favor, bestowed upon us. God has chosen to allow us to participate in our own salvation, in fear and trembling, such that it is God's choice that our good works and obedience have salvific relevance. I don't think that's what Luther's was saying, but if that is what he was saying, then he was right because this is what the Ancient Catholic Church has always taught. > David H. Wagner > a confessional Lutheran. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia A Confessional Catholic