Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!umriscc!maverick.ksu.ksu.edu!deimos.cis.ksu.edu!mccall.com!tp From: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) Newsgroups: comp.org.decus Subject: Re: DECUS badge-pulling decisions (was re: Ray Ka Message-ID: <1991Jan31.165013@mccall.com> Date: 31 Jan 91 22:50:13 GMT References: <910124092032.00000A80011@mwvms.mitre.org> <00943303.CDEDA880@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU> <1991Jan25.100847@mccall.com> <1991Jan30.025554.2081@dcs.simpact.com> Reply-To: tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) Organization: The McCall Pattern Co., Manhattan, KS, USA Lines: 118 In article <1991Jan30.025554.2081@dcs.simpact.com>, jeh@dcs.simpact.com writes: >In article <1991Jan25.100847@mccall.com>, tp@mccall.com (Terry Poot) writes: >> While I'm here, I'd like to venture the opinion that DECUS was totally >> out of line here. If they wish to propose such a policy, it should be >> voted on by the membership. Until such a thing passes, they should leave >> correctional issues to the government. I, like Ray ("read the >> article...") wonder if DEC applied pressure to DECUS to get this guy >> thrown out. >Oh, for crying out loud, Terry. Do you really want the entire >membership to be >asked to vote on every policy decision? I don't; I wish to be bothered >with >upper-level DECUS politics as little as possible. Not every decision. >That is what the DECUS Board >of Directors is for. If you don't like what they're doing, throw the bums out >at the next election. Good idea. Anyone want to volunteer the names of those responsible? Do they intend to admit it themselves? If this was a board decision, anyone know the yea's and nay's? Kinda hard to throw the bums out if you don't know who they are. I wasn't there, but I'd be willing to bet this decision wasn't made at the open board meeting. >In point of fact there was no "policy" settled on at the time of this >incident. >Recall that the back of your symposium badge says "property of DECUS"; >that >one of the conditions of attendance is that the Canons of Conduct be >signed; > and that the individual involved did *not* sign them. Those >circumstances are >sufficient to pull his badge *under current policy*. Hmm. Nobody asked me to sign anything but the registration form. "All Registrants: by registering, all attendees agree to abide by the Canons of Conduct" -- Registration packet, book II, page 4, large type. "Canons of Conduct are policy that has been implemented to allow for the revocation of symposium registration of those attendees who have been obviously disruptive and/or have attempted to sabotage or vandalize machines and/or software WHILE AT SYMPOSIA." (emphasis mine) -- Registration packet, book II, page 4, column 2 at the top. Thus there IS a policy for revoking registration, and this person did not violate that policy. The board broke its own rules. I no longer have a copy of the registration form itself, but if it didn't say anything else, they would appear to have violated a contract entered into in good faith. Basically, it is an unethical business practice. Not that I'm suggesting it as a course of action, or that it would be worth his trouble, but he could probably sue. >If you object to the policy, you are free to make some waves at upper levels. >Get involved in DECUS leadership, etc. I have always rejected the proposition that my opinion is not worth consideration unless I run for office, or that I should not express my opinion other than by voting. The fact that I'm less involved in DECUS than you doesn't mean your opinion is worth more than mine, just that I'm in less of a position to do anything about it. >If you like you can propose a new >policy item that states something like "The right to attend a DECUS Symposium >shall not be affected by a person's criminal record, even where said criminal >offenses are in the areas of computer sabotage, even if against DEC's own >systems and networks". I doubt you'll get far with this (put this way, just >how many security-conscious people would want to allow such a person on the >floor?), but who knows. >... I've always thought of Ray Kaplan as a security-concious person. >But I am *not* interested in having the membership-at-large vote on >every little >policy decision, thank you very much. Oh, you wanted to vote only on >SOME >decisions? Which ones, pray tell? Only "major" decisions? Only those >>involving the exclusion of people from symposia? Only those to which >you >object? How about those where the board makes a decision in conflict with current policy? I can only speak for myself, so consider this. Suppose I attended DECUS and had my badge yanked (I can't say why this might happen, as the board apparently have criteria they don't deign to share with the membership) and was sent packing. My company pays for my trips to DECUS. The registration fee (which was refunded) is not even the majority of the expense of the trip. My company is out much money, having received no value in return. This doesn't make me look real good. I kinda doubt they refunded the guy his hotel bill, airline fare, meals, etc. I take your point about everyone voting on everything. Perhaps if there were a recorded vote on the issue, we could "throw the bums out". Jamie, if you think what they did was warranted, then say so, I'd like to hear your reasoning. I'm sure this is a 2-sided issue. If you don't wish to be bothered with it, fine. "KILL/SUBJ"; If it shows up on a ballot, abstain. I do think it is worth discussing. Who knows, someone might convince me the decision was justified. Granted, nobody has to care what I think, but at the moment, I don't feel real good about the DECUS leadership, and will probably vote against every incumbent on the slate, unless I get a better list. This doesn't make me feel real good about DEC, either, but I know they don't care a great deal about what I think. Maybe the only reason I bother to express an opinion is because I know there's nothing else I can do about it, so you win anyway. -- Terry Poot The McCall Pattern Company (uucp: ...!rutgers!ksuvax1!mccall!tp) 615 McCall Road (800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041 Manhattan, KS 66502, USA