Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!helios!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!seismo!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!cica!travis!greg From: greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk Subject: Re: Social Security numbers Message-ID: Date: 31 Jan 91 23:28:17 GMT References: <29736@mimsy.umd.edu> <1991Jan31.044728.28435@iecc.cambridge.ma.us> <62440@bbn.BBN.COM> Sender: news@cica.cica.indiana.edu Distribution: na Lines: 59 rwaters@bbn.com (Rolland Waters) writes: >In article johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) writes: >> You are free not to give it, and they are free not to do >> business with you. >They are not free not to do business with you? Can you give me an >example, including under what law? Maybe when you're filing a credit >or bank application, but not otherwise. There should be laws in most >states to prevent businesses from refusing customers on arbitrary >grounds; these laws largely came out of anti-discrimination efforts. I think John is right - a business IS allowed to discriminate on seemingly "arbitrary" grounds. One of the primary rights of business is the right to deny service to those with whom one does not wish to transact. You've seen those "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs haven't you? It's not illegal for a business to be paranoid. If they feel it's too risky to do business with someone who won't provide them with adequate identification they can, and should be allowed to, refuse to do business. Every try and get an apartment in New York? Landlords always size up an applicant and reject those they do not want occupying their building. Now, before I get torched, let me say that I do NOT support the use of the SSN as identification and I routinely refuse to give it to those who have no right to it; like the supermarket, the DMV, and my University. I have been denied service because of this, but the occasion is infrequent in the extreme. Most businesses are 1) Sensitive to the SSN issue and 2) Aware that ones SSN is a very unreliable method of identification and verification. It gives no info about where a person resides (unlike a telephone # or, even, a seperate driver's license #) and is easily faked. I believe that the so-called "anti-discrimination" laws make it illegal to refuse to sell based upon race because such a refusal violates laws regarding interstate commerce. I haven't read the law in quite some time, but I recall that the lawmakers had a very difficult time of a) Getting around a business' fundamental right to refuse service and b) Making the law a Federal one. The only thing they could come up with was the legal equivalent of a massive kludge which equates racially restricted commerce with the impediment of interstate commerce, which is against Federal law. >> Many states >> absolutely require your SSN for a drivers license, and a lot of them insist >> on putting it on your license. Here in Mass. they ask but on request (and >> without giving you a hard time) the license has a "state" number which is the >> letter S followed by 9 digits and is very handy for confusing droids who want >> to type the number into computers that know that the number contains only >> digits. You can always refuse this kind of bullshit. State agencies are NOT allowed by law to refuse you service because you will not divulge your SSN, unlike private agencies. If it's not necessary for a tax/revenue purpose you can deny it and they MUST service you. -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applications Disclaimer: I heart hate email.