Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: FAITH AND WORKS Message-ID: Date: 30 Jan 91 09:33:30 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 130 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >In article blosser@lrc.uucp writes: >>Now, what's the point? This: if salvation was purely a matter of juridically >>imputing the righteousness of Christ to the sinner, and not also a matter >>conditional upon the actual transformation of the sinner, by degrees, into >>a Saint by the cooperation of his or her own efforts, then why should we >>trouble ourselves with trying to be Christlike? > >Exactly!! We shouldn't! That's Christ's job. He plants His life in us >for our faith. I believe that you are carrying your theology to its logical conclusion and leave any responsibilities we have out of it. This is not what I get when I read *all* what is written on the subject in the Bible. Let me give you two examples: James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Here we can see that: 1. Abraham was justified by works. 2. Abraham's faith was shaped and formed by his work. Paul also said that we are justified by our works. Genesis 4:6-7 ============= "And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?" "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door...." The idea that the only thing which we need to do is to accept Christ into our heart and good works will pour out of us with out any effort on our part at all is a false teaching. I wonder what Abraham and Sarah would tell us of their feelings when Abraham went to sacrifice his son, as he was commended to do. I wonder about the stoggles which they had, and the heaviness of heart as he took his only child from Sarah to be sacrificed. I don't believe for one second that the sacrifices which are made by many who follow Christ comes easy, at no cost at all. I believe that God give us sufficient faith for us to act upon. But act upon we must. The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25 is a good example what happens. All three of the servants received money, but one has done nothing with it, and was severly condemned. Matt 25:29-30 ============= "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abunbance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is the significants of what James said when he reffered to the fact that Abraham perfected his faith through works. It is true that the three servants received money (grace), but it is also true that *they* had to go and do something with it. I find it ammazing that many who *follow* Paul's teachings can be so off balanced that they actually end up in opposation of the teachings of the Savior himself. >Yes, if he wants us to struggle towards that perfection in this life. But >he doesn't..... I would like to strongly disagree with this statement. Jesus said exactly the opposite in the Sermon of the Mount. Matthew 5:48 ============ "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." >The extreme protestant view has missed the point by saying >that we don't have to do anything; however, the extreme catholic misplaces >our efforts. We work out our salvation by phobia and trauma (rough cognates >of the actual greek words); that is, we should fear lest, a promise being >left to us, we should fail to take hold of it (rough translation of somewhere >around Heb. 11). We should fear to fall into one single day without acting >in faith. Yesterday's faith doesn't count for today. > I agree in general with the above statement. However, we are responsible to work out our own salvation as Paul said: Philippians 2:12 ================ "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." As you notice, he is instructing the saints to do this, not those who have not yet accepted Christ. >>Regards, >>Phil > >Don't put the fruit below the trunk and roots. Don't put the cart before the >horse. Good works are not the necessary condition of our sanctification. All >they are are a sign.... I strongly disagree with this statement for the reasons I have mentioned above. That is: 1. We perfect our faith by being engaged in good works. 2. We sanctify ourself through good works. Romans 2:13 *********** "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." > >John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, > I can't stumble or stay put." - Dylan With brotherly love, Frank