Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: FAITH AND WORKS Message-ID: Date: 3 Feb 91 03:46:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC Lines: 93 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > > Just in clarification...I don't think I or Gene or anyone else >addressing "salvation through faith" (not to oversimplify or ignore >grace) intended to give this impression. Thanks, Vince! ;-) Let me clarify, 'cause I've gotten some email on this over the past few weeks. I do believe that works are important. But I do not believe that human works bring salvation. Works being defined as works of righteousness. I have posted this before, but let me do so again and see if I can clear up some things about what I believe based on my studies. In John 3:16, the English word "believe" is the Greek "pisteuo." The same for the English word "faith" in Eph. 2:8. I've come to the conclusion after studying this word and its associated meaning, that what the text is speaking of is a level of "commitment" that is superior to anything that humans can produce. I believe that the call to all Christians is to become "bond-slaves" of Christ. This means giving up ourselves and our "free will" to Christ to be used of God. I also believe that this is the path that we are lead down once we have come to Christ as our Lord and Savior. The choices that we face after coming to Christ are His will versus our will. Notice that Jesus prayed not for His will to be done but rather the Father's will to be done. And this is the same prayer and attitude that we should strive for -- but I assure you that it is not easy. Often we will find ourselves trying very hard to place our will before that of God's. And this is not meant as a flame to anyone -- I'm saying this knowing that I have done the same thing, and might well do it in the future. Listen to some prayers where the person praying is explaining to God why it would be good for Him to do a certain thing, in a certain manner, within a certain time frame. I can clearly recall offering up such prayers in my early days as a Christian -- I'm glad that my Heavenly Father is a lot more tolerant than my earthly father was. Now, the list of passages that could be quoted relating to doing the will of God is lengthy, and I'll make an assumption here that most of the folks out there know some, many, most of them, or can look them up. So let me concentrate instead on this point -- faith (pisteuo) is make apparent through our works. The faith that is given to us as a gift is made apparent through the works of Faith. For example, there is the fruit of the Spirit. This is a work of the Spirit within us that is manifested openly. And I see a relationship between this and other works of Faith; for example, feeding and caring for the needy. However, let's reverse this for a moment. Suppose that I'm a wealthy man and give the vast majority of my wealth to the feeding of the poor. Have I obtained salvation because of this? Or suppose that I'm not such a wealthy man, but I take that which I have and give it to the poor, have I obtained the gift of salvation? I have no desire to render salvation as some sort of formula -- a receipe for righteousness as it were. But the fact is that faith comes first, then the works. And a good person who has lots of works but has not the gift of faith is not saved. His house is built on sand and not Rock. I know that this is an unpopular view in this age of syncretism, but I am constrained by what I read the Bible to say. And I have to also point out that a person claiming to be a Christian who does not display the works of Faith needs to be questioned closely. Now as to what works I can offer to God that will gain my salvation -- I say none. Some say that repentance is a good work, but I maintain that repentance is the result of the gift of Faith. Remorse is not repentance. Repentance sees my sin for what it really is from God's point of view. Remorse sees my sin merely from my point of view. Remorse does not lead to the results that repentance does. When we repent we turn away from our previous course of action and move in the opposite direction. I like the word that Vince uses -- surrender. Repentance yields a surrender of our lives to God, a surrender of our wills to the Will of God, and the sacrifice of our lives to God as a living sacrifice. The other side of this question is whether or not our salvation is eternally secure -- despite our human frailties. I have said that I believe it is. I believe this because first of all the work of salvation is not a human work, but the eternally complete work of God in Jesus Christ. This work of God lacks nothing and is sufficient for all. Those who come to Christ are in His care. Now it would seem rather odd that Christ could not keep His from falling away. Is our God so weak, our Lord so puny, that together they cannot keep those that believe, despite their human frailties? En Agape, Gene