Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: FAITH AND WORKS Message-ID: Date: 3 Feb 91 04:33:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 204 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >In article , johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >>In article blosser@lrc.uucp writes: >>>. . . then why should we >>>trouble ourselves with trying to be Christlike? >> >>Exactly!! We shouldn't! That's Christ's job. He plants His life in us >>for our faith. > >I believe that you are carrying your theology to its logical conclusion and >leave any responsibilities we have out of it. This is not what I get when I >read *all* what is written on the subject in the Bible. Let me give you two >examples: > >James 2:21-22 >============= >"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made >perfect?" > >"Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made >perfect?" > >Here we can see that: > > 1. Abraham was justified by works. > > 2. Abraham's faith was shaped and formed by his work. > >Paul also said that we are justified by our works. Please tell me where Paul said that we are justified by our works. If you read the whole book of Romans you'll find Paul setting up the Law over all of mankind (not just the Jews but the Gentiles). In the first few chapters (up to chapter 3 v. 20), Paul says that the Law, in order to impart righteousness and eternal life to those who would follow it, must be followed to the utmost, perfectly, and always: "... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (ch. 2 v. 7). But keep reading: "There is none righteous; no, not even one" (ch. 3 v. 10). Paul's purpose in these initial chapters--as was one of Jesus's purposes in the Sermon on the Mount-- was to show that it is impossible to follow the law; all the law can do is to convict of sin. "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith [not just belief] in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who faithe [not just believe]. . . . Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (Romans ch. 3 vv. 21-28). And from here until the end of chapter 8 Paul expands on the theme: "I do what I don't want to do, and the good I want to do I don't do" (ch. 7 v.15 etc.); "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" (ch. 8 v. 1; BTW, the little phrase in v. 1 right after this in the KJV, "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit", was added by the KJV translators.); "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we now serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (ch.7 v.6). We serve God in the newness of a gloriously restored relationship, with utmost obedience and trust, and God takes care of making us spotless; we don't have to. (By the way, when I say `follow the law', I mean any attempt to work for our justification, not just following the Jewish Torah.) >The idea that the only thing which we need to do is to accept Christ into >our heart and good works will pour out of us with out any effort on our >part at all is a false teaching. I wonder what Abraham and Sarah would tell >us of their feelings when Abraham went to sacrifice his son, as he was >commended to do. I wonder about the stoggles which they had, and the >heaviness of heart as he took his only child from Sarah to be sacrificed. >I don't believe for one second that the sacrifices which are made by many >who follow Christ comes easy, at no cost at all. I never said that the only thing we need to do is accept Christ into our hearts. There is a call laid upon us. Abraham and Sarah must have, many times, felt the weight of this call. My call is not your call. But nobody's call is to get up in the morning and, for example, commit to God to have no sexually impure thoughts for as much of the day as is possible. Or to not have violent feelings toward your idiot neighbor. Or to not want to go out and try to make money because you might open yourself to the temptation of materialism. Okay, so what is the call, the cost? Well, for one, the Gospel must go out to the world, in the language of the world, not in Latin or 16th century English, for example. William Tyndale, the great English reformer/translator, paid the cost of following the call with hardship during his life, and martyrdom at the hands of King Henry VIII. This was because he was determined that the English would have the Bible in their own language. He faced odds that, without the Spirit of God working in him, would be insurmountable. He faced them with faith in God's promises, and for his faith, God put His life into him, and in the end gave him eternal life. Our call is either to be one who spreads this message (an apostle, prophet, evangelist, or pastor-teacher, see Eph. 4: 11-13), or one who supports one of these God-given ministers (this is not to deny that we should in our own personal situation be witnesses of the Gospel to our friends, family, co-workers, etc.). Personal holiness? I hear a lot about that and it almost sounds like personal hygiene (spelling?). It should not be treated that way, the way we normally interpret the word holiness (i.e., constant vigilance over our thoughts and actions, are they pure?, unselfish?, loving?, etc.) Holiness, properly understood, means separation, and in the case of the Christian it means separation to God. We should be vigilant that we be separated to God each day. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done. . ." >I believe that God give us sufficient faith for us to act upon. But act >upon we must. The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25 is a good example >what happens. All three of the servants received money, but one has done >nothing with it, and was severly condemned. I agree. Peter had to get out of the boat in order to complete his faith that he could walk on water if he kept his eyes on Jesus. Peter had to do something. This is not at all the same as trying to imitate the fruit of the Spirit. >>Yes, if he wants us to struggle towards that perfection in this life. But >>he doesn't..... > >I would like to strongly disagree with this statement. Jesus said exactly >the opposite in the Sermon of the Mount. > >Matthew 5:48 >============ >"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This is Jesus's underscoring of the ultimate demand of the law, which reaches to the intentions of the heart, if you would be righteous by following the law. Jesus doesn't want perfection from us; he wants trust. If you expected perfection from your spouse, the marriage wouldn't last very long. You have every right to expect trust, and to expect that both of you will work on the marriage. What do you want from your kids, perfection or trust? Jesus never tolerates sin, but he tolerates us sinners. In his timetable he will eradicate every blemish and sin (but the job won't be complete until we die). These moments of eradication will come in the form of a prompting from inside (which you will not be able to deny) to try and overcome some little sin, or maybe a big one; He gives you the power to do it. And it's not your responsibility to go out and create such opportunities. And often it doesn't happen this way. I think most of the time the Lord cleanses you behind your back, as it were, and you find yourself not doing things you once did, or hanging out with people that you used to. Let the Lord do it. "Love God and do what you will." I think Augustine said this. One last word about Abraham our father in faith. He faithed in God, and God credited it to him as righteousness. Right then and there. The present reality (Abraham's faith) and the eternal consequence (Abraham's righteousness before God) met at that one moment, and needed no action in the future to make it complete. However, it is not true that once you are saved you are always saved. It's more like, "Once safe, you are more likely to be safe in the future." Eternal life is more like an electric mass transit system than an automobile. You don't get eternal life by storing up the gasoline of good works in your tank. You get it by maintaining contact with the electric power line (God's promises) that is within your reach everywhere you go. Abraham could have sacrificed Isaac without faith, and there would have been no benefit to him. James fails to mention that Abe said to his servants at the bottom of the mountain, "We (i.e., Isaac and I) shall return." Abe did the act (or at least tried to) with the promise in mind that "through Isaac shall your descendants be numbered." Abe faithed that God would raise up Isaac after he killed him. (See Heb. 11:17-19.) >However, we are responsible to >work out our own salvation as Paul said: > >Philippians 2:12 >================ >"Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence >only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation >with fear and trembling." > >As you notice, he is instructing the saints to do this, not those who have >not yet accepted Christ. This only underscores the need for constant faith actions, every day. It doesn't necessarily mean that we should be constantly concerned about doing good works. It all hinges on what is meant by 'work out your salvation.' Let me reiterate: >>Don't put the fruit below the trunk and roots. Don't put the cart before the >>horse. Good works are not the necessary condition of our sanctification. All >>they are are a sign.... > >Romans 2:13 >*********** >"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers >of the law shall be justified." See what I said above about the book of Romans. And then go read the book of Galatians. John Warren ". . . Into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put." - Dylan