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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: X3J14 Goals
Message-ID: <2236.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 14 Jan 91 04:39:49 GMT
Organization: (n.) to be organized.  But that's not important right now.
Lines: 109


 Date: 01-11-91 (14:24)              Number: 846 of 846 (Echo)
   To: B.RODRIGUEZ2 [BRAD]           Refer#: 831
 From: JACK WOEHR                      Read: NO
 Subj: X3J14 GOALS ... PURGED!       Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
 Conf: FORTH (58)                 Read Type: GENERAL (+)

 -> *Sigh.*  I rest my case -- I complain about the endless parading of
 -> credentials, and I get resumes for half the TC.

         Poor fellah! Only a sampling of the best Forth programmers
 in the world to help formulate the BASIS! What a rip-off :-)

 -> > It's a question of "the work to be done has largely been done and >
 -> PAID FOR, and the carpers-against by and large are ready neither to >
 -> re-do the work nor pay for it again....

         But true, isn't it? Who is willing to shell out to pay for
 this effort twice?

 -> First, this is a self-serving argument which can be used to justify
 -> never backing down from any position.  The Defense Dept. uses the
 -> same line to justify tremendous boondoggles -- "but we've put so much
 -> into this already, we can't throw it away!"  I learned a different
 -> view in engineering school -- if it's WRONG you DISCARD IT, never
 -> mind how much time and money you've wasted on it!  (More succinctly
 -> stated as "never throw good money after bad".)

         But it *isn't* wrong Brad. And there is no Pope of Forth.
 Nobody even listens to Chuck anymore if they don't wanna! So you
 are free to formulate your own standard. Go ahead, name your team.

 -> Second, the carpers-against by and large have been doing and paying
 -> for their share of the work all along.  I, for one, have been
 -> contributing since BASIS6. There are many others who have "burned
 -> out" in the process.  If this is a contest of endurance or attrition,
 -> I guess we don't have the "dedication" required.

         I think that is exactly it. All of us feel cheated when
 something we want leaves the BASIS or some Rube Goldberg machine
 gets inserted. What I see is that the BASIS is a very good compromise.

 ->
 -> I've been to one meeting, and yes, everybody gets heard.  Does
 -> everybody get listened to?

         Yes ... and occasionally laughed at :-) Look, you were
 there. You *know* we vote on everything AND THE DROPPERS-IN HAVE
 AN EQUAL VOTE.

 -> LEARN THE BASIS - yes.

         Have you seen BASIS14? It's very good. With two changes, I'd
 accept the CORE and CORE EXT verbatim.

 -> ACCEPT THE BASIS - not without question!  If it's wrong, it's wrong.

         Mostly, now, it's not wrong. Read BASIS14.

 -> IMPROVE THE BASIS - we're trying, but becoming disillusioned.

         Good. Shed your illusions. This is a practical, not an imaginary
 task.

 -> SUPPORT THE BASIS - only if it deserves it.

         jaxthinx it does.

 -> The "political" arguments I've been hearing have been of the form of
 -> Let's All Get Behind The BASIS and Present A United Front To The
 -> World and Show The Unaninimity Of The Forth Community and blah.  Any
 -> time now I expect to be labelled "counterrevolutionary" and purged.

         Kumrad Rodriguez, report to Ziberia for re-education!!!!

 ->
 -> > what more could you ask for from a *S*T*A*N*D*A*R*D*.
 ->
 -> I don't ask for more, I ask for less.
 ->
         Look, Brad, I converted my 83-STANDARD 80196 Single Board
 Computer Forth to comply with the CORE and CORE EXT in eight hours
 work. The whole system, including Assembler, Debugger, Decompiler,
 etc. etc. etc. fits in 32K of EPROM on the Vesta SBC196. It's
 small enough for Vesta ROM Forth, yet big enough (if you support
 for instance the File extensions) to make it to a Mainframe with
 PPPOOORRRTTTAAABBBIIILLLIIITTTYY Portability. Chant with me, my
 son:
         Portable Micro,
         Portable Mainframe,
         Micro Mainframe,
         Portable Portable.

         Hairless Forth Code
         Hairless Source Code
         Portable Portable,
         Portable Portable.

         Now you are reaching ANS-lightenment!

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for Forth!
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