Xref: utzoo misc.consumers:26872 alt.activism:10040 talk.environment:2188 comp.org.eff.talk:1426 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!zardoz.cpd.com!dhw68k!felix!asylvain@felix.UUCP From: asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) Newsgroups: misc.consumers,alt.activism,talk.environment,comp.org.eff.talk Subject: Re: Advertising is bad (no it's not, don't be an idiot) Keywords: DMA Suppression junk-mail recycling activism Message-ID: <157119@felix.UUCP> Date: 8 Feb 91 22:17:15 GMT References: <156215@felix.UUCP> <1991Feb1.054640.1441@cs.ucla.edu> <156606@felix.UUCP> <1991Feb5.192632.20536@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Sender: daemon@felix.UUCP Reply-To: asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) Distribution: na Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks Lines: 292 (sigh) More flames from idiots. What the hell, it's lunch time. Here goes. In article <1991Feb5.192632.20536@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> spm2d@newton.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) writes: > In article <156606@felix.UUCP> asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) writes: > >Murder and advertising are two different items. Advertising may offend > >your sensibilities, or inconvenience you, but there's no bloodshed > >(except, mayhaps an occasional paper-cut.) > > But that is not the point. The point is, just because something exists, > should we accept it? NO. No, you shouldn't accept it simply because it exists. But you shouldn't ban it simply because you don't like it. You'll have to come up with better reasons. You'll have a lot of convincing to do. > >> But the advertising has no informational value. Just some stupid song > >> or a pretty face or something like that. It is content free. > > > >So? That makes it bad? Most of USENET is content free! > > Including your messages! Thanks a lot! It's comforting to know I'm appreciated around here. [...] > >Yes, but *which* store! Would you drive 5 miles out of your way to try > >a different store to save maybe 20% from your bill? I would! I do! > >How are you going to find out about that store if it doesn't advertise? > > Well, lets see. I'm hungry! I need to go to a grocery store! Well, since > they don't advertise, I'll STARVE because I don't know about them! No, *you'd* probably ask your mother for a hand-out. > Ever consider that people shop around? Of course they do. But they shop around to places *who's advertising they have seen*. Unless they happen to stumble on to something, which also happens. Even in this case, tho, if they haven't seen the store advertise, there's a good chance they won't go in. Advertising also legitimizes an establishment ... people have more trust in a company they've heard about, even if only in advertising. People distrust a place where they feel it's so tiny they can't even afford to advertise. Haven't you ever looked for something in the Yellow Pages? (advertising, btw) Do you call up all the little itty-bitty phone- number-only listings, or do you call the guy with the half-page ad? (I know, I know, *you* call the little itty-bitty ones. Obviously, the silly folks buying the half-page ads are wasting their money.) > Who REALLY listens to all that > nonsense about how "Food Tiger saves you money by doing something > completely worthless!" and "Not Really All That Fresh has UNADVERTISED > SPECIALS which we advertise anyway because we are dits!"? NOBODY. You are incorrect and reveal your ignorance with that statement. Do you really suppose that companies would spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that everyone ignores? *Somebody* must be using it! Probably even you, altho I doubt you'll ever admit it here. > They try the different stores and find out which one is cheaper. If they > talk to a friend who says "yeah, Bob's is cheaper", they'll go there. > Word of mouth WORKS. Of course it works. It works Wonderfully. But it's slow. It's *horri- bly* slow. Your company will go out of business waiting for someone to show up based on word-of-mouth. What do you do if you're a new busi- ness? How you get someone to come in the for the very first time and start the word-of-mouth going? Telepathy? Once people know you and learn of your existance thru word-of-mouth, how do you remind them you're still there? The public's memory is extremely short. If you happen to get a discount from your supplier, and want to pass the savings on, how do you let your customers know that now's a good time to come in? Knock on everybody's door? > So people won't buy ANYTHING unless companies advertise? Gosh, that > makes sense! Heck, nobody would buy any food if food companies didn't > advertise! And that is EXACTLY what you are saying. No, that is *not* exactly what I'm saying, as you again display your ignorance of the matter. Advertising allows new companies to enter the market and allows existing companies to persuade customers from the competition. Of course people would still sell and buy. *Some* companies would exist. *Other* companies *would* go out of business. With fewer companies, competition is lower. Competition is what keeps prices down. Ther also would be fewer products. How do you inform the public that you've just invented a new widget that will make their lives easier, more productive, or get 'em better dates? We have a supermarket here, called Vons, which doubles manufacturer's coupons. Do you suppose they'd bother doubling coupons without advertising? Not likely. The reason they do it, and the reason they advertise that they do it, is to convince shoppers to come over from Luckys (and others, of course). Luckys has lower prices, but less variety. Now, how do you suppose I'd find out about Vons' coupon-doubling if they didn't advertise? How do you suppose I'd find out that Luckys is the "low-price leader" if they didn't advertise? Do you suppose Luckys would bother trying to be the "low-price leader" if it wasn't for Vons' advertising taking some of their customers away? Do you suppose Vons would bother doubling coupons if it wasn't for Luckys taking away some of theirs? > Of course, if you fail to respond to this argument, I'll assume you > agree with me (ala Four person debate) and thus I'd win! This is totally off the subject. I'm not trying to debate you, I'm trying to give you an education. You are woefully in need of it. > >> Advertising is evil. > > > >Guess what, your resume is advertising too. If you really feel the way > >you do about *all* forms of advertising, remember, that resume is your > >personal ad. Sending intro letters to potential employers is advertis- > >ing. Better throw those applications in the trash can, now. > > Resumes aren't evil. Calling up bosses every day and say "Hey! Will you > hire me?" gets annoying. Doesn't it? The personnel departments of most good-sized companies receive hundreds of resumes per day. *Hundreds* per *day*. Smaller companies probably receive hundreds per week. When they put a good sized ad in the paper (say two or three columns, or the whole page) that number goes up to *thousands*. Furthermore, they *also* receive plenty of telephone calls. I imagine it does become annoying, depending on the caller. Maybe you should give up looking for a job, since it seems to be against your principles. Resumes == Advertising, unless you want to make an exception in your case. The case, that is, of when *you* have something to sell (your expertise and/or labor). I know! The companies will hear about you by word-of-mouth! Rii-ii-iight! Better hope your mother hasn't rented out your room yet. [...] > OK, then. Now, please give us your address. Why? Because I want to fill > out all those cards in magazines like Computer Shopper and such to receive > merchandiser advertisements and be put on their mailing lists. Since > you clearly LOVE to get junk mail, I'd think you'd consider this a > blessing. Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain Post Office Box 1861 Walnut, California 91788-1861 > And when you DO give us your address, I encourage EVERYBODY on the net > to fill out those reader info cards and fill this fellas mailbox up > REAL quick. Hey, all he has to do is take 2 minutes to sort through > this junk! I really hope you get your jollies out of this. Honest, I want you to be a happy person. I already toss plenty of junk mail, so I doubt if I'd even notice the difference. (Please remember "the Chipmunk", so I'll know it's you. My interests are computers, software, sailboating, photography, and (near-)naked women.) > >If you find something *really* *mongo* offensive (like obscenity, misre- > >presentation, fraudulent, etc.), write a friendly letter to the company. > >Chances are very good they'll listen. Entire ad campaigns have been > >dropped on the strength of a single letter from a consumer. Companies > >*need* your support. > > Give me one example. I'm afraid I don't remember the specifics, but I've heard of a woman who wrote a letter to Proctor and Gamble about some ad they were doing. Boom, the ad was dropped. Look, instead of complaining to me about the ads, why don't you try it? Find a particular ad that really disgusts you (for reasons *other* than simply being advertising) and write them a letter! Chances are pretty good your success will be greater than you think. Companies do not stay in business alienating their customers. Every letter they receive counts for 100-500 people whom they figure agree with you, but are too lazy to write. That's an awful lot of clout, if you think about. [...] > >It provides all the information the advertisers wish for you to have. > > A bunch of lies. Not the truth. LIES. OK, give *me* one example. > Isn't that the case you were making earlier in your message? That ads > "educate" the public? If not, what ARE the purpose of ads? Do tell. I have never said that ads educate the public. The purpose of ads are to let the public know of the existance of goods, services, and the com- panies that provide them. If you like, that is "education" of a sort. Even more important is to convince people of the quality of those goods and services. And, most importantly, to persuade people to *buy* the goods or services. > >Successful advertising allows a company to increase it's market share, > >allowing it to sell *more* products, which frequently allows it to apply > >volume discounts to it's production, and, *if it's a good idea*, pass > >those discounts to the consumer. The consumer *saves* money. > > Which means other companies have to advertise more, raising THEIR > prices. There IS a limit to how much mass production saves money, > you know. They don't necessarily advertise more, just advertise differently. Budweiser may drop "Spuds McKenzie" in favor of "Gumby". They have an advertising budget, which, depending on their business practises, probably stays pretty constant. They may increase it or decrease it depending on current market conditions. If they find themselves losing market share, they're more likely to change the "flavor" of the advertising. They could switch some of their ad budget to prizes in a sweepstakes. They may even hire a different advertising firm. But they won't just blindly increase the ad budget. But that's *their* decision, not *yours*. They can't simply raise prices arbitrarily. That is a good way to send customers to the competition under most circumstances. If they deter- mine that they must increase ad spending, but can't increase prices, then they have to suffer lower profits. It's a decision made in hopes of keep their customers for the long term, or getting more customers. If it works, they can profit later. If it doesn't, oh well. No one said it was going to be easy. [...] > Reducing price reduces demand. Contrary to what EVERY SINGLE ECONOMICS > TEXTBOOK IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAS SAID, you have just really stuck > your foot in your mouth. OK, if this is true, then raising prices increases > demand, eh? DUMB, DUMB, DUMB. Again you display your ignorance of the subject. Believe it or not, it is actually true. For some products, in some markets, under some condi- tions, *lowering the price* can be the stupidest thing the company can do. Yes, increasing the price in some situations will increase demand. I truly doubt if you've ever read any one of those economics textbooks you refer to. Otherwise, you'd know better. Statements like these reaffirm what I suspected, that is, that you have not the slightest notion of what you are talking about. [...] > >Furthermore, once it's selling more of a product, the company has more > >money to spend on things such as diversifying into other markets, where > >it can produce more products, creating even more profit. Also, inciden- > >tally, creating more jobs. > > Once it's selling more of a product, it does diversify, which means it > spends more money on advertising, creating less profit. But it's already budgeted advertising for that market! In a market which usually already has competitors, who are already advertising! Profit is *in*creased by selling in *more* markets! > >> Junk phone calls are even worse than junk mail. > > > >Get an unlisted number, and you won't be bothered anymore. [...] > Oh, now this is really a bunch of crap. My family has an unlisted number, > and guess what - we STILL get calls. Telemarketing calls. Yes, really! I suggest you complain to the phone company. Altho, it's possible they've gotten your number from other sources. You didn't fill-in any surveys, did you? The phone company is *not* supposed to sell unlisted numbers. My number is listed, and I hardly get any calls at all. Yes, really! > >asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) > > Maybe we can flood his mailbox with junk e-mail. Why not? He seems to > love it... Go ahead. Just so long as you have something to say other than flames. I'll even respond, if the mailer doesn't bounce. > Steven Miale -- asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) =========== Opinions are Mine, Typos belong to /usr/ucb/vi =========== "We're sorry, but the reality you have dialed is no longer in service. Please check the value of pi, or see your SysOp for assistance." =============== Factual Errors belong to /usr/local/rn =============== UUCP: uunet!{hplabs,fiuggi,dhw68k,pyramid}!felix!asylvain ARPA: {same choices}!felix!asylvain@uunet.uu.net