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From: sobleski@psuvax1.cs.psu.EDU (Mark Sobolewski)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Isn't it time to start treating men like human beings?
Message-ID: <513Go7_c@cs.psu.edu>
Date: 6 Feb 91 17:08:36 GMT
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
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This is in response to a reply about a posting I made in soc.men.
Valerie had justified Affirmative Action based on her philosophy that
it's making up for "centuries of discrimination".  I pointed out that
while I could have talked to many of my grandmothers, aunts, etc. on
this subject, my paternal ancestry was forever silent to me, because
they were all dead before I was born.

They either worked in coal-mines, in stores, almost always doing heavy
labour in stress filled environments that shortened their lives.  They
did this for their families as many men feel they have and had to do.
So their women could stay at home.  Now I'm supposed to be punished
for this?  For what my fathers did?

Kemasa said that I may have something against women.  Here is my
answer:

    Kemasa has criticized my posting with regard toward the men in my
family.  He sees it as women hating.  I feel a few things need to be
clarified:

    I don't hate women.  I hate a lot of the things some of them do to
me.  But I like a lot of them too. :-) I feel that men in our society
are seen as disposable.  Women who follow up on this aren't to "blame"
but that doesn't ease the sting when it's done.  Many of them believe
that men want "chivalry".  Many of us do.  But we are human beings,
not mere biological reproduction units.  Women have fought for the
right to their bodies and to control when they give birth.  Men should
have the right to expect the same level of protection that they have.
_Both_ signifigantly affect the "baby count".  Considering the fact
that our society has had no problems so far keeping up it's
population, this may be a _good_ thing rather than bad.  But that's my
opinion...

    About women's contributions to our society.  Just because men died
young in the past at jobs they hated doesn't make them saints.  My
father, for one, tried, but sadly failed to respect me in many ways.
My mother isn't necessarily lazy either.  She kept the house
spotlessly clean (as well as a good sized yard), put the best cooked
food on the table _anyone_ who's ever come to our house has had the
pleasure to consume, managed our finances to a cutting edge, etc.  She
kept busy almost 24 hours a day.  But my father's work is more
stressfull, and he's paying for that now.

    I don't want to downplay women's contributions to society, or how
they have suffered from gender roles; I just want to point out that
men have selflessly contributed and suffered as well.  "Punishing"
their sons for what they have done is sick.  Making self-sacrifice out
to be "oppression" or punishing them because someone elses father was
a jerk sounds like sexism to me.  The worsest kind.

    I've noticed this attitude all over the place: When I point out
how I want to be regarded as a human being and not as a success
object, I get the line: "We're all free to make choices to go with
society, or not..."  But if a woman is harrassed because she's trying
to do something out the traditional expectations of her gender,
everyone gushes lakes of tears.  What sort of people think this way?
Kemasa, how can you read what I say and still hold these positions?
How!?!?

    My father's very much like Homer Simpson and sometimes is a jerk.
But one thing I've never seen portrayed about him is as a coward.  Or
ungenerous.  Doesn't that count for something when we look at what men
have traditionally been expected to be in respect to what women went
through?  Don't we count for anything?

--
"S&M Consciousness Raising" by:  Mark Sobolewski  sobleski@cs.psu.edu
 (814) 867-4367                  Bitnet: sobleski@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu