Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!hedrick From: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Moral reasoning (was Re: draft of Identity Task Force statement) Message-ID: Date: 6 Feb 91 10:02:08 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 114 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu ! In a post responding to my earlier response to Elizabeth Tallant Vincent ! Mulhern says: ! ! >Responding to the post by Mike Maas... ! ! > Second...The Bible says what it says. Saying, "Maybe there's a ! >cultural aspect to this that nobody has found that makes statements> specific only and not really general principles" [Some of Mike's comments regarding Paul's context removed because I want to address a different point.] ! >is so bogus ! >it isn't even funny. Come on...sin is sin. There are some things GOD ! >says, "DO NOT DO THIS." about. Like, eat the fruit, etc. etc. Well, ! >HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE YOU AREN'T MARRIED TO is in there. Gal. 5:19. ! >Eph. 5:3. Elizabeth Tallant cited I Cor 6:15-20. It's there, and it's ! >clear. God did not stutter. It doesn't say, "Don't fornicate with ! >selfish motives." It doesn't say, "Don't fornicate unless you really ! >love the person sincerely and with the love of God." It says, "DON'T ! >FORNICATE." ! In general I tried to show how the real issue is love, not a literal ! interpretation of a translation of a letter written by Paul. If you read my ! post carefully, you would know that fornication is the last thing I would ! argue for. But since you brought it up, let's examine it. I was under the impression that the RSV was considered a pretty reasonable English-language translation. I find: Gal. 5:19-21: Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. Eph. 5:3-5: But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolator), has any inheritance in the kingdon of Christ and of God. I Cor. 6:15-20: Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Chirst and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one." But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you know know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. So Paul condemns in God's name "immorality", "impurity", "licentiousness", "covetousness", and "filthiness." Okay. But he never actually comes right out and tells us what exactly we are to consider immoral, impure, licentious, covetous, and filthy. Perhaps my translation is not a fair one, or maybe my concordance weak, but I really feel that we are left to our own understanding (fortified as always through prayer and study) when it comes to what Paul is actually telling us not to do or not to do. [More of Mike's ideas edited out here.] ! When Jesus used the parable of the Good Samaritan, he was teaching a direct ! lesson about the fact that a neighbor is another human in need, regardless ! of who they might be Samaritan, gay or any other category of person. However, ! a second and less direct lesson here is that literal interpretation of ! scripture, the letter of the law, often leads one away from God's Truth, the ! spirit of the law. Until the lawyer had his eyes opened by Jesus' expansive ! use of language he understood only the letter of the law. Subsequently, we ! hope that he understood the spirit of the law as well. I agree that the Good Samaritan is an excellent example that illustrates the point about expansive use of language. It's not necessary, however, to read the Scripture "expansively" in this particular case to make your case. It is enough to read the Scripture rather literally and show that it actually says less than some people seem to think. ! >Jesus is Lord! ! >Vince Mulhern Amen. ! May we open our hearts to the Lord so that He might bless us with His Peace ! which surpasseth all understanding, ! Mike Maas Amen. ============================================================ Mark W. Schumann 3111 Mapledale Avenue, Cleveland 44109 USA Domain: catfood@ncoast.org UUCP: ...!mailrus!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!catfood ============================================================ [The Greek word is "porneia". There's some debate about how specific its meaning is. It seems to be used with a range of meanings from adultery to licentious sex. RSV and TEV have opted for a general reading, translating it as "immorality". NRSV has gone to the more specific "fornication". Whether that's a good translation depends partly upon what you think the English word means. If you think it's a technical term meaning precisely all sex outside of marriage, that probably implies a bit more precision than is really there. --clh]