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From: Subash@uh.edu (Subash S. Jayawardena)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re; KE for Q. on Karma and Rebirth
Message-ID: <2177@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>
Date: 7 Feb 91 22:22:38 GMT
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> = kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) wrote:
[Source of >>> and >> uncertain]  
>>>Even ***	as are reborn *** endlessly throughtout the universe. In the  
>>>Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni says that he has always been in the world   
>>>(since he attained enlightenment, many, amny aeons ago) to lead the 
>>>people towards enlightenment.					 
   
>>words to discover the buddha nature by himself.  This is not the same as     
>>the final enlightenment which involves complete permanent detachment from    
>>the mental defilements to attain a mind free from greed,hatred and delusions.
   
>Freedom from "mental defilements" does NOT mean not to be born again. 
>The Buddha is as human as we are. 

  Since I do not get any explanation from Keith's statements as to *why*
  he keeps saying buddha is reborn again and again my possible explanations
  for such statements:
  (1) simple misuse of words and misinterpretation of teachings.
  or 
  (2) lack of understanding about the attachments,world,existence,
       rebirth, enlightenement etc.
   or
  (3) So much respect to the buddhas and attachment of high values to
       worldly things and existence.  Therefore, feeling that the
       states of enlightenment and buddha could be viewed more positively
       by saying that buddhas are reborn again and again.  Sort of an
       attempt to aggrandize buddhahood by attaching worldly values.
  or
  (4) Wishes of seeing a buddha mixed up with emotions and attachments to 
      existence etc.  Do not worry, there are bodhisatvas now. Therefore,
      there will be buddhas appearing in the physical form in future.
      

>Freedom from "mental defilements" does NOT mean not to be born again. 
>The Buddha is as human as we are. 
  
-- 
>Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
>            Respectfully, 
>                 Keith Evans            kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov

  So you meant buddha also after attaining enlightenment and final 
 enlightenment are being born again and again?  This seems like a
 quite distorted view of the concept of enlightenment itself (not to
 mention about the buddhahood and the bodhisatvas).  I would not blame
 you for this because as it is told there is no wisdom without meditaion
 and no meditation without wisdom.  Even to have a slightest idea
 about enlightenment a person has to have at least slight awareness
 of what's going on with oneslef.  However, let me try to straighten
 your misconception, may be you can try to analyse it and see what your
sect's *proper* interpretations of buddha, enlightenement etc. is.

   What is rebirth? Isn't it with relative to existence (or bhava)?
  Then the existence or becoming is conditioned on other causes.  So 
  this conditional existence is clearly explained in the law of
  cause and effect (or paticca samuppadha).  Starting from ignorance:
  Ignorance (avijja) => mental formation (sankhara) => consciousness 
  (vignana) => mentality and physical form (nama rupa) => six sense
  bases (salayathana) => contact (phassa) => feeling (vedana) =>
  attachment (thanha) => grasping (upadhana) => becoming (bhava) =>
  birth,disease,death,sorrow,agony,unsatisfactoriness etc.
  
    Going in the reverse order for an enlightened person, starting
  from anihiliation of ignorance all the other conditions are non-
  existent.  With all our desires,graspings, views etc. it is difficult
  if not impossible to understand these states.  That is where at
  least a little bit of meditation or practice of mindfullness helps.
  Even non-inward directed chanting will not help in this case. 
  Because the ordinary unenlightened mind is full of desires,
  views,attachements, buddha did not answer the questions about
  the states after final enlightenment (or parinirvana) in worldly terms.
  Typical answers to the questions: "Does the buddha exists after
  parinirvana?","Does the buddha not exist after parinirvana?" are NO.
  Similarly when a person asked from buddha who he was he did not try
  to explain in worldly terms. "Are you a human? no", "Are you a god?"no
  "Are you a brahma?"no.  From physical body buddha was a human but
  from mental aspects he was none of the above (hence his answer was
  no to all the above questions)
  
  Answering you statement directly:  permanent eradication of mental
  defilements (neevarana,sanyojana,kilesa,asava, thanha - I am sorry
  I cannot give direct english translations to these terms without
  explanation so I give only the pali terms) guarantees that a 
  person attained final enlightenment does not enter into another existence
  (or bhava, hence no rebirth or no punarbhava).  Permanenet anihiliation
  of defilements of a person's mind means there is no rebirth to him/her.
  
  Now few words about bodhisatvas.  When their unvawering (or infallible)
  quest for buddhahood begins they have gained an understanding of
  enlightenement.  But this is not the same as the final realisation
  which eradicates the defilements of the mind permanently.  However,
  a bodhisatva's understanding of enlightement is more than that
  of an unenlightened nonseeker (of enlightenement).  One reason this
  has to be true:  a bodhisatva's search for full enlightenment does not
  end when there are no buddhas in the world.  On the other hand, a
  bodhisatva attains full enlightenment when there are no other
  buddhas or buddhist teachings in the world. (We can discuss buddhist
  teachings abundantly today because a buddha appeared 2500+ years
  ago in the world. Similarly, bodhisatva Jogo (sp?) could learn and
  preach his teachings because Shakyamuni attained his final realisation
  and taught the teachings properly, otherwise enlightenement would
  be just a concept in writing).  Buddhas help and facilitates bodhisatvas'
  quest definitely, and bodhisatvas also pay their utmost humble respect
  and reverence to buddhas.  Furthermore, bodhisatva could help many
  in the way of teahing during the times of the buddhas.  That is why 
  even in countries of mostly theravadin tradition you can find legends,
  stories and respect for bodhisatvas.  A bodhisatva who has come to
  know about the buddha never looks down upon (or belittle) buddhas or 
  other enlightened people.
  
  Bandula