Xref: utzoo misc.consumers:26928 alt.activism:10153 talk.environment:2199 comp.org.eff.talk:1440
Path: utzoo!utgpu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!willett!dwp
From: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers,alt.activism,talk.environment,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Advertising is bad (no it's not, don't be an idiot)
Message-ID: <2327.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 11 Feb 91 12:56:10 GMT
References: <157119@felix.UUCP>
Organization: (n.) to be organized.  But that's not important right now.
Lines: 70

In article <157119@felix.UUCP>,
	asylvain@felix.UUCP (Alvin "the Chipmunk" Sylvain) writes:
> In article <1991Feb5.192632.20536@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> spm2d@newton.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) writes:
> > But that is not the point. The point is, just because something exists,
> > should we accept it? NO.
> 
> No, you shouldn't accept it simply because it exists.  But you shouldn't
> ban it simply because you don't like it.  You'll have to come up with
> better reasons.  You'll have a lot of convincing to do.

Didn't you come in on the beginning of this topic?  The point was that
it doesn't just "exist".  Mass mailings use massive amounts of paper, even
if it is recycled.

> Of course they do.  But they shop around to places *who's advertising
> they have seen*.  [...]
> Advertising also legitimizes an establishment ... people have more trust
> in a company they've heard about, even if only in advertising.  People
> distrust a place where they feel it's so tiny they can't even afford to
> advertise.  Haven't you ever looked for something in the Yellow Pages?
> (advertising, btw)  Do you call up all the little itty-bitty phone-
> number-only listings, or do you call the guy with the half-page ad?

"What we have here is a failure to communicate..." Your argument is
addressing only part of the advertising picture.  For one thing, I
only get one YP per year.  Not every week.  Second, most of the
adver-crap I get is disguised to look like real/important mail.  That
does not create in me the "trust" you claim.  It pisses me off and I
refuse to deal with the weenies that use that tactic.  However, neither
my nor your picture of advertising is complete.  We are looking at different
pieces of the pie.

> You are incorrect and reveal your ignorance with that statement.  Do you
> really suppose that companies would spend tens of thousands of dollars
> on something that everyone ignores?  *Somebody* must be using it!
> Probably even you, altho I doubt you'll ever admit it here.

Yes, some advertising is useful to me.  That does not imply that all
advertising is useful, nor does it follow that advertising is the only/best
way for me to get the information.

> I really hope you get your jollies out of this.  Honest, I want you to
> be a happy person.  I already toss plenty of junk mail, so I doubt if I'd
> even notice the difference.  (Please remember "the Chipmunk", so I'll
> know it's you.  My interests are computers, software, sailboating, 
> photography, and (near-)naked women.)

Lucky for you most of your junk mail is so readily identifiable.

> I suggest you complain to the phone company.  Altho, it's possible
> they've gotten your number from other sources.  You didn't fill-in any
> surveys, did you?  The phone company is *not* supposed to sell unlisted
> numbers.
> 
> My number is listed, and I hardly get any calls at all.  Yes, really!

And mine is unlisted and I still get junk calls.  Listing vs. Unlisting
doesn't do you diddle squat when the weenies are either dialing at random,
or are buying your phone number from someone who you wanted-to/had-to give
it to.  But this is way off the subject.

I think the upshot of this discussion is not that advertising is useful
therefore not evil, but that there are several kinds of advertising and
that it is not useful to lump them all together.  Nor is it useful to
assume that because advertising exists the way it does now that it is in
fact the best way to achieve the goals it claims to be trying to achieve.

-Doug
---
Preferred:  dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us	Ok:  {pitt,sei,uunet}!willett!dwp