Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!helios!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!seismo!uunet!samsung!think.com!mintaka!geech.ai.mit.edu!rjc From: rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: How to beat a NeXT Message-ID: <1991Feb13.212430.4657@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> Date: 13 Feb 91 21:24:30 GMT References: <1991Feb11.023952.19951@NCoast.ORG> <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> <1991Feb13.161930.4861@cc.helsinki.fi> Sender: daemon@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu (Lucifer Maleficius) Organization: None Lines: 154 In article <1991Feb13.161930.4861@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> >> Ok, you asked for the real comparison? Well here it is. > ---- > >I'll make it a bit more real: Or a little twisted. >> >> The Amiga 500 (slab) vs NeXT (slab) >> NeXT Slab $3200 >> Amiga 500 $500 >> 040 CPU board $1500 * > >Hmm. _Is_ there such a board? Or just a rumor? Is the rest of the >machine designed so, that it will someday accommodate a '040? Look this is a thought experiment, I thought everyone understood that. >> Unix $500-800 ? > >PLUS the price for some Unix graphics interface - and better take the >best you can find. XWindows is free. >> A2024 $600 ? > >What kind of display is the A2040? You should get a 2-page DTP display >if you tried to be fair. The A2024 is 1024x1024 mono. It's a monitor not a card. >On _Workstation market_ you need _High quality_ graphics. Most people >who are using the machine something else than video graphigs rather take >the 1200x850 4-shade system than some not-so-high-quality color with a >small monitor. And for _real_ video graphics, you need 24-bits or more. ^^^^^^^ Hmm. I guess my lowly TV set isn't real. Because NTSC can't do 24bit color. Toaster. 'Nuff said. Aha, but more and more UNIX's these days are getting graphics and color. >> ---------------------------------- --------------------------------- >> Total: $3200-3400 $3200 > >I guess the price will be more. > >Add to this that NeXT has the DSP and 16-bit CD-quality stereo-audio, >this is not cheap. It also comes with complete programming environment. >And if you are an university customer, you get Mathematica (might be >worth almost $1000) etc. etc. "You don't need a DSP!" If your going to argue expansion slots that are not being used, you may as well argue the logic of why every NeXT has a DSP when not every user needs one. >> >> * - The 040 board will includes a cheap SCSI controller ($200) >> cheap ethernet, and a 100mb HD and 8mb of ram. >> >> (note: If this were integrated and priced educationally the ram/A500/Unix/2024 >> would be cheaper) >> >> Comparisons: >> The A500 will run AmigaDOS and AT&T Unix (1 point for the Amiga!) > >What's the point in AmigaDOS? How is it better than NeXTStep? It's a better single user system. Built for speed and real-time applications. I can do in 512k, what it takes over 8mb to do on a NeXT. >>Has 1 expansion slot. >Not if you put the '040 in it. (I don't know if you put it there, actually.) Nope. This card would patch into the 68000 slot like the MegaMidget racer does. >> NeXT has DSP (1 point for NeXT) >> >> Summary: >> >> While this is a fantasy comparison, it just shows that you can take >> just about any computer, strip it down, add in an 040 and it will >> price about the same as the NeXT. >> Not only that, My A500 slab STILL looks more attractive than the NeXT >> because it also comes with AmigaDOS, an expansion slot and color (optional >> monitor). > >I think that MOST people would prefer a Slab to your super-A500. Really. I think most people would prefer a computer they could USE for $3200. >> >> The recent threads in this conference really depress me. People are >> acting like Apple/Ibm. >> >> Remember these old lines: >> "You don't need multitasking!" >> "You don't need color!" >> "You don't need sound!" >> >> and now >> "You don't need expansion slots." > >Oh, you can't have EVERYTHING for $3000. You just have to decide _what_ >you need most. (Amiga, for example doesn't really have sound on $3000 >range - only because of the insufficent quality for anything more than >games.) 16 bit DAC's are cheap. All it takes for NeXT quality sound is a use 16bit DACs (and perhaps a chip to feed them). CDTV (which is an Amiga) has 16bit CD sound (it plays CDs) so obviously it can be done. And to follow on in your footsteps "You don't need SOUND. An internal beep will do." >> One or two NeXT users mentioned 'If I ever want to upgrade my >> CPU or graphics , I'll just sell my NeXT and buy a different model.' >> THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION. It's one of the reasons expansion slots were >> invented. I don't want my computer to become obsolete every 1 or 2 >> years when a new processor revision/hardware add-on becomes availible forcing >> me to buy a new model. > >So, that's why I think it's not much different to first buy a machine >with no slots and then change to a same kind of machine with slots _when >you actually NEED those slots_. You don't loose much. Just change the >case and buy the slots, really. (And if you don't happen to need the slots, >you actually win.) Would you buy a car if you knew it was going to break down in 5 years? When I buy something, I want it to last. Your "Buy this model now to hold you over, then sell it and get this model." mentality is not appealing. > >> My end opinion is that the slab is not the 'NeXT generation of computers >> for the 90s.' In 1, perhaps 2 years it could become obsoleted by an >> A3000 with a faster 040 card, 050,etc. > >More likely is, that NeXTstation will be obsoleted with a NeXTstation II >with '050 (or perhaps there will be a motherboard upgrade). What do you >do with your '030 on the A3000 when you uprade to '040, anyway? Yea, and you'll have to sell your slab to upgrade. The 030 stays in the A3000 dormat while the 040 runs. Unless someone (like the board manufacturer) writes a small patch to OS to put the 030 to good use, like an i/o processor, or an IBM AT emulator, etc. >> >> The Cube may be able to compete, but the price needs to fall. > > > Jouni Alkio, Helsinki, Finland