Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!think.com!samsung!rex!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lindborg@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A first cut at Tolerance (long - sorry) Message-ID: Date: 12 Feb 91 09:18:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 97 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Washington Computer Science In article lvron@saturn.lerc.nasa.gov (Ronald E. Graham) writes: >First, we have to define "tolerance." The dictionary definition is "a >bearing of views, beliefs, and practices of others that differ from one's >own." >If, when someone says that Christians are >intolerant, that person means "the Christians think their faith is the only >true faith; the Christians think they are the only ones who will go to >Heaven," then, by that person's terms, I am intolerant, and I would not be >anything else. Not quite. I contested that the intollerance stemed from the fact that you believe everyone else is going to hell, not that you are the only ones going to heaven. A fundamental difference since I have no desire to exist for all eternity in any form, period. >BTW, this is Mr. Lindborg's definition of "intolerant," based on his postings >here and in another newsgroup in which I have encountered him. It is not the >dictionary definition, or the definition of common usage. Really? I think it matches quite well. When I speak of the intollerance of Christianity, I'm speaking of the actions of Christians... which, of course, are not always tollerant. Neither of us needs a run down on church attrocities over the last 1200 years so I'll skip it. Further, we see quite a lot of intollerance (a *lack* of bearing of views....) in recent history. For instance up untill the 1950s it was not possible for a teacher of any other religion besides Christianity to get through immigration. There are countless other such examples of which I'll spare you... >Having a definition, and a scope, we turn next to types of Biblical text >aimed at tolerance. These would be teachings and examples. Teachings are >given concerning the treatment of neighbors and the disposition of >controversies. The treatment of neighbors is of concern here because the >accounts of neighbors generally do not indicate the views of the neighbor. >Where the view of a neighbor is considered, such as the case of the Good >Samaritan, it is generally a worst-case view, relative to that of the >observer. [Biblical quotes deleted for brevity] Again, its the intollerance of Christianity that bothers me... not the idealized view of what a Christian *should* be as depicted in the Bible. I'm quite aware of the flood of well intentioned ideas set forth throughout the New Testament. Unfortunately its rare that we see these ideas implemented in any real sense... >Individuals having a different background/training than that which I have, >if they profess Christ, are not to be considered lesser people, or lesser >Christians. *if they profess Christ*. Then if someone does NOT profess Christ it is alright (and certainly probable) to think of them as 'lesser' people? They are, after all, going to spend eternity in hell unless they see the inherint 'truth' in what you believe. >And, if I am persecuted for matters of faith, I am not supposed >to respond in kind. Again, don't get me started. From the time of Constantine on we see quite a lot of persecution being delt out at the hands of the Christians. One must ponder what the world would be like today if Constantine saw, say, the Buddah in the sky instead of the Cross... >I am not supposed to agree with those who have other >views, just to placate them; but I am not supposed to pray for/wish them >evil, or to do them evil. Of course not... you are supposed to convince them of the truth and validity of your set of beliefs. Unfortunately many Christians in their zeal to do just this go so far as to employ violence and repression to meet these ends... >So: what about the apparent intolerance shown by God in the Old Testament? Yes, what of it? For instance how would you like to have been a farmer in Caanan around 1200 BCE? Minding your own business when suddenly here comes Joshua down from the hills with his band of thugs, kicking ass and taking names for no other apparent reason then they believed their god said this land was theirs. Me thinks they would not be too concerned with your dictionary defintion of 'tollerance'... >I don't know how to deal with that yet: the wars and mass slayings carry >the appearance to some of a contradiction in terms. Yes, indeed they do. >RG >Tolerant of agnostics, but not a certain Agnostic with an Attitude. Well! I suppose I'll have to loose the attitude or incur your wrath... Jeff Lindborg Meek agnostic.