Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: math1h3@jetson.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Questions about the Messiah Message-ID: Date: 14 Feb 91 12:19:31 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston Lines: 131 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , ejh@sei.cmu.edu (Erik Hardy) writes: > I have some questions about the Messiah: > When Jesus was asked if he was the Messiah, he answered in the affirmative; > to my knowledge, he never said he was the son of God. I know that he was wont > to say 'my father' and such, but, to me, that just sounds like artistic > license; after all, he did teach us to pray 'Our Father, who art...', so I > can't think of his use of 'my father' as a discriminator in this. My suspicion > in this matter is that his words were construed afterward, but I'm open to > reasonable discussion. How you receive this response of mine depends on the extent to which you believe the Bible. At Jesus' baptism, 'a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." ' --Matthew 3:17, see also Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22. In John's gospel we also have the testimony of John the Baptist: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God." Similarly at the transfiguration: "Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!" --Mark 9:7. See also Matt 17:5, Luke 9:35. In addition Jesus confirmed Peter's confession: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God", for he replied: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you my man, but by my Father in heaven." Matthew 16:16,17. As our moderator pointed out, the book of Hebrews interprets Psalm 2 as Messianic. That this Psalm is Messianic should be apparent to even a casual reader: v. 2 'The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together againt the LORD and his Anointed One.' Anointed One = Messiah. v. 1 and 2 appear to be a reference to the battle of Armageddon, Rev. 16,16, Rev 19, 11-21, and in Rev. 19:15 is quoted Psalm 2:9:"He [You] will rule them with an iron scepter". v. 8: 'Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.' This could only mean the Messiah. > 2. I don't know if this is about the Messiah per se, but rather about > ecumenism: If the Jews are not convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, but > Christians are, how is it that rabbis and pastors, etc. can get > together to participate in ecumenical activities? i mean, what can they > possibly have to talk about, if they can't get past this most fundamental of > differences? For christian pastors to acknowledge a spiritual unity with rabbis who deny that Jesus is the Messiah, particularly in a worship service, is essentially a sin against the commandment 'You shall have no other Gods before me.' Jews worship a false image of God. From the Christian perspective they are unbelievers and idolators. For a christian to pretend that they are not is a denial of Christ. I certainly won't accept as a pastor anyone who behaves in this way. > 3. How can Jews for Jesus and similar groups exist? The coming of the Messiah > was supposed to signal an era of well-being for the Jews, but things have not > been all that good for Jews since Jesus. So how can they possibly justify > belief in a Messiah that has apparently been pretty ineffectual in living up > to the prophecies (at least for them)? Here you pose a tough question. Many of the Messianic prophecies tell of the coming of the Messiah and then look forward to Judgement day. You can't see any period of time in between just by looking at the prophecy. I was just looking at a passage like that yesterday, Jeremiah 33:15-16: "In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness." Christians understand the 'righteous Branch' to be Jesus. Could it mean an earthly king and not the Messiah? To answer this, I want to look at two interesting passages: In Genesis 49:10 Jacob says to Judah: "The scepter will not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his." Again, this is clearly Messianic. It says that a line of kings will come from Judah, but that the kingship will not be rightly theirs, but God's-- in fact Christ's. And that the Messiah will have the 'obedience of the nations'--which ties in pretty well with Psalm 2. Next in Ezekiel 21:25-27 we read: "O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! *It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it." Thus the kingship was taken away from Judah, and the only 'righteous Branch' that could come was the Messiah. Now what about Judah being saved, and Jerusalem living in safety? In a sense, Judah was saved in Jesus' time, for he died for their sins and for their salvation. And he is our righteousness. We have none of our own, but can be justified only by having his righteousness imputed to us, on account of faith. Their salvation was accomplished--but not all believed. I don't have a problem with this, because the true 'Israel' is always the body of believers. The unbelievers are 'cut off from the people.' The next part, about Jerusalem living in safety, clearly refers to the time after Judgement. Admittedly this is from a Christian perspective. Read Rev. 21, which describes the New Jerusalem. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.