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From: Subash@uh.edu (Subash S. Jayawardena)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Final ans. to Keith,no more circ. args.pl.(was Re: Karma and Rebirth
Message-ID: <2212@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>
Date: 11 Feb 91 16:04:57 GMT
Sender: news@sun13.scri.fsu.edu
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 87
Approved: mayne@nu.cs.fsu.edu
Status: R


   
>>  Since I do not get any explanation from Keith's statements as to *why*     
>>  he keeps saying buddha is reborn again and again my possible explanations  
   
>Maybe you should answer the question of why you think a buddha is not         
>reborn again.

  After reading your this latest long response I thought of not answering
under this topic.  Because it looks like this had  become a revolving
door.  But as a courtsey I thought I should write few lines again.
(This concludes my answers under this thread of arguments, no more
circles)
My last posting and the previous two were my explanations as to
why people who have attained final enlightenment are not subject to
rebirth (in the sense we worldlings normally use, I was not refering
to other mystical concepts etc.).  Therefore, if you want to find my 
answers to these please re-read them, try to find the meaning of them,
read them carefully with mental reflection (or yoniso manasikara).

> Life is eternal. The life of a common mortal and the life
>of a buddha are not separate. Buddhahood is inherent to all life. The     
>life a buddha lived was demonstrated by Shakyamuni and Nichiren, to help
>people overcome thier sufferings. 

  The statement or belief that life is eternal is a view.  In essense
  you are grasping onto a view of eternity.  Along with this view of
  eternal existense there arises in your mind a 'desire' which is
  named in buddhist teachings as Bhava Thanha.  A cause of unsatisfactoriness.
  How can you claim eternity in life even it changes from moment to moment?
  
  (I do not expect a written answer from you. This is posed just as a
  provacation of thoughts.  Even if you elect to answer please answer
  it in your terms as you understand - because just words of Nichiren
  or Shakyamuni's Lotus Sutra need not be mentioned again here)
  
> Thinking that you have to 
>spend many lifetimes eradicating karma is Shakyamunui's Buddhism.

  If you do not understand Shakyamuni's Buddhism (as you've claimed
  you are following Nichiren's Buddhism), please do not make false
  statements about it.  Because Buddha has clearly stated that
  all the buddhist practices are laid down because it is possible to
  attain enlightenment. (a person do not have spend countless lives
  eradicating karma if the teachings are practiced - spending many lifetimes
  eradicating Karma is not Shakyamuni's buddhism as I've learnt.  Because
  the attempts to eradicate Karma will be an unending process. Because
  as worldlings, people gather more and more karma as life goes on.)
  

>>  So you meant buddha also after attaining enlightenment and final   
>> enlightenment are being born again and again?  This seems like a   
>> quite distorted view of the concept of enlightenment itself (not to  

>Yes, the question is whose misconception is it?

.......

>   Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.      
>            Respectfully,       
>		 Keith Evans		kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov


It is not finding whose misconception, that is important.
Because to find if another has any misconception a person has to
find out clearly and perfectly if oneself does not have any misconceptions.
If our own misconceptions are removed it is easy to point out others'
misconceptions positively. 
 
 My original explanations etc. were not answers to misconceptions,but
explanations of enlightenement, what is it relative to rebirth and karma etc.
Then in the last posting I explained why it becomes a distorted view
to say the people who had attained final enlightenment are reborn.
(Both in terms of the use of words as well as according to the meanings
of them).


Sound of single handed clapping.

none of the following terms refer to eternity or eternal life. Misconception
or straight fact?

The unconditioned, the unborn, the release, the peace, the freedom from
bondage, the liberation.


Bandula