Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: crf@tomato.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Imposing Christian morality on nonbelievers Message-ID: Date: 18 Feb 91 04:14:14 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Princeton University Mathematics Department Lines: 53 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article mib@geech.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes: >In article abvax!iccgcc.DNET!benning@uunet.uu.net writes: > I Tell my children that the Bible TEACHES that homosexuality is sin. > And those who claim to be, are no different than adulterers or one who > sleeps with their sister. It is rebelion against God and through Jesus > bringing you new life through faith, you can overcome the sin, and live > a "normal" life of "normal" God given relations with the opposite sex. > >And just this has damaged, and continues to damage, thousands of >people daily. Day in, and day out, year in, and year out, this idea >is thrust forth, masquerading as love, and asking me and my sisters >and brothers to hate ourselves. ... Not quite. There are two different things being spoken of here: 1. the assertion that homosexuality is sin 2. the assertion that because of #1, homosexuals should be severely judged Remember that Jesus kept these two things distinct. If you read "prostitutes" or "tax-collectors" in place of "homosexuals" above, then His attitude becomes clear: He never hesitated to love the "sinners," but He could always say to them, "Go and sin no more" - and, because of His radical love for them, they went and sinned no more! Although we have no records of His ever encountering a homosexual (who in all probability would have been shunned by Jewish society just as the prostitutes were), I strongly suspect His approach would be similar. If I may try to summarize, Michael is apparently saying this: in the past people who say homosexuality is a sin have used this as a reason for hatred; this hatred has been very damaging to homosexuals and produced just the opposite effect of Christian love. So far I agree completely. But Michael seems to go on to imply that because of all this we as Christians cannot consider homosexuality as wrong; with this part I disagree completely. Homosexuality is a sin; but then, so are fornication, adultery, jealousy, stealing, murder, pride, coldness of heart, and many other things. Jesus loves us despite our sins, and through that love calls _all_ of us to turn from _all_ kinds of sin; if only we could show that same kind of love! Grace and peace, Charles Ferenbaugh [No, that's not quite what is being said. Most homosexual Christians operate from the perspective that homosexuality is a basic character trait about which the person has no choice. As such you can't say "go and be homosexual no more". But this is the approach that most of the Church has taken. If someone who is homosexual accepts this instruction, they find it impossible to comply, and quite often end up considering themselves worthless. Of course the Christians who object to homosexuality do not accept this analysis. They regard it as equivalent to a thief claiming that his desires are a built-in thief orientation. It appears that this differences in perspective is a basic one, on which arguments have almost no impact. This tends to result in discussions that are less productive than usual. --clh]