Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Is Jesus God!! Message-ID: Date: 19 Feb 91 04:41:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH Lines: 147 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Re: William Hill In article , wjhill@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (william.hill) writes: >Does the Bible teach that each of those said to be part of the Trinity is >God? Dear William, Our moderator commented a bit on this; it's basically a matter of interpretation as to whether or not the Bible supports the idea of the Blessed Trinity. Some religions say yes, some say no; the Bible gives support for both, depending on the translation of the Bible and on the interpretation of the given Bible. Despite this, I'd like to speak to a few other points that you've raised: > Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their >belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are >Jehovah. This is not a Bible teaching! Please remember that your above "or" connects two RADICALLY different views; the first is true, and the second is false. To say that Jesus Christ is God is one thing; to say that He is YHWH is something else, again. The basic formula for the Trinity is this: The Father (YHWH) /\ / \ / | \ / \ i t s i o s n | | n s o i GOD t / \ / is is \ / / \ \ / / \ \ The Son (Jesus) ---- is not ----- The Holy Spirit So the claim that "trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ *is* YHWH (in the sense that Jesus = Father)" is not true. >If Jehovah is a Trinity, as some in this newsgroup believe, How the do you >explain the following scriptures? >Acts 7:55, 56 reports Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw >"Jesus standing at God's right hand." But he made no mention of seeing the >Holy Spirit. Again, it's a matter of interpretation. Stephen didn't say that he saw Jesus standing at the Father's right hand and NOT standing by the Holy Spirit. The mere fact that the Holy Spirit was not mentioned is no grounds for assuming the Spirit's non-existence or non-Divinity. >Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face >and prayed, `My Father, if it possible, let this cup pass from me; >nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.'" (If the Father and the Son >were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. >Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity >have been the Father's will.) Again, I refer you to the diagram (above); trinitarians do NOT believe that Jesus and YHWH are the same person. >Do any of the scriptures that are used by Trinitarians to support their >belief provide a solid basis for that dogma? >A person who is really seeking to know the truth about God is not going to >search the Bible hoping to find a text that he can construe as fitting what >he already believes. He wants to know what God's Word itself says. Again, please be careful. The doctrine of the Trinity was started because the early Church leaders *DID* think that it was true, Scripturally; the decision to accept the Trinity was not a whimsical or arbitrary one. In other words, the Catholics used the Bible to FORM the concept of a Trinity (which they then accepted)... not the other way around (i.e. justifying a preexisting belief with the Bible). >John 1:1,2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and >the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (King James). However >in the New World Translation John 1:1,2 reads: "In the beginning the Word >was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the >beginning with God." The New World Bible (i.e. the bible used by Jehovah's Witnesses) takes severe liberties with its translations, and is recognized by the vast majority of the Chriatian community (and by Jewish Biblical Scholars) as erroneous. For example, your quoted passage CANNOT have included the indefinite article "a"; Greek simply doesn't operate like that. The Greek "Theos" is read exactly like the Latin "Deus": as either "God" or "THE God" (definite article); in Greek and in Latin, indefinite articles (like "a", or "some") must be mentioned specifically (by use of another word). For example, in Latin, "Deus" means "the God"; one would need "ullus Deus" (any God) or some such thing to indicate indefinite status. >Which translation of John 1:1,2 agrees with the context? John 1:18 says: >"No one has ever seen God." True, but in the very next sentence, it says: "It is God the only Son, ever at the Father's side, who has revealed Him." (New American Bible, John 1:18) Catholics maintain that "God" in the first part of John 1:18 is in reference to the Father; otherwise, it would contradict itself (i.e. the Son is God, and has never seen Himself OR His Father, which is a rather odd concept). >Is the rendering "a god" consistent with rules of Greek grammar? Some >reference books argue strongly that the Greek text must be translated, "The >Word was God." But not all agree. Bible translator William Barclay states: >"Now normally, except for special reasons, Greek nouns always have the >definite article in front of them, and we can see at once here that theos >the noun for God has not got the definite article in front of it. This does not reflect the modern understanding of Greek; in both Greek and Latin, it was actually rather uncommon to place a definite article before a word whose meaning was clear; it would be redundant. (Note: writers of Greek and Latin DID do this sometimes, to emphasize the definite article being described.) I suspect that, had William Barclay's opinions been in conformity with common understanding of Greek, classrooms the world over would have heard about it. Again, please don't take this posting as an attempt to convince you that your non-Trinitarian belief is wrong; it's not my place to do that. But I *do* wish to make sure that you have a correct understanding of the Trinitarian point of view. ---- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu