Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A first cut at Tolerance (long - sorry) Message-ID: Date: 19 Feb 91 04:42:48 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 106 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article lindborg@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Lindborg) writes: >Organization: University of Washington Computer Science >In article lvron@saturn.lerc.nasa.gov (Ronald E. Graham) writes: >>BTW, this is Mr. Lindborg's definition of "intolerant," based on his postings >>here and in another newsgroup in which I have encountered him. It is not the >>dictionary definition, or the definition of common usage. > >Really? I think it matches quite well. When I speak of the intollerance of >Christianity, I'm speaking of the actions of Christians... which, of course, >are not always tollerant. Neither of us needs a run down on church attrocities >over the last 1200 years so I'll skip it. Further, we see quite a lot of >intollerance (a *lack* of bearing of views....) in recent history. For instance >up untill the 1950s it was not possible for a teacher of any other religion >besides Christianity to get through immigration. There are countless other >such examples of which I'll spare you... Before we can get anything accomplished here, we have to get one thing straight. The actions of someone who is labelled 'Christian' do not necessarily reflect what real Christianity is. People screw up. Christians are still people. They are going to screw up. In addition, there are plenty of church members and church leaders who are not even Christians. You cannot judge Christianity by what churches have done throughout Christianity -- you can only judge humanity by this. If you're trying to say that the church throughout history is guilty of messing up severly, then you're right. I admit it -- we're guilty. This is one of the cool things about Christianity. God has a perfect right to justly blow us all to shreds. Yet He is very cool about these things. He still loves us all. It's really pretty amazing. >Again, its the intollerance of Christianity that bothers me... not the >idealized view of what a Christian *should* be as depicted in the Bible. >I'm quite aware of the flood of well intentioned ideas set forth throughout >the New Testament. Unfortunately its rare that we see these ideas >implemented in any real sense... One of the ideas put forth in the Bible is that people are going to screw up, and screw up badly. Hence the Amazing Grace that God offers us. You cannot say Christianity is false because one of the things it puts forth to be true actually happens. Who is a sinner? Everyone, including me. >*if they profess Christ*. Then if someone does NOT profess Christ it is >alright (and certainly probable) to think of them as 'lesser' people? Absolutely not. The more I get to know God, the more I realize how pathetic I am. I _know_ what I should do and I don't always do it. Romans 2:2 says "Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." Isaiah 2:12 says "For the Lord of hosts will have a day of reckoning against everyone who is proud and lofty." The amazing thing is that even though this grieves me, I'm still joyful. Forgiveness if really wonderful. Try it -- you'll like it. > They >are, after all, going to spend eternity in hell unless they see the >inherint 'truth' in what you believe. Such a shame that those who drive their cars into brick walls are punished for not seeing the 'truth' that the brick wall is not good to run into. It's not a pleasant thought, so it must not be true. >Again, don't get me started. From the time of Constantine on we see quite a >lot of persecution being delt out at the hands of the Christians. One must >ponder what the world would be like today if Constantine saw, say, the Buddah >in the sky instead of the Cross... The church has screwed up. It's a sad fact. But, are you saying that the church is unique at screwing up? >Of course not... you are supposed to convince them of the truth and validity >of your set of beliefs. Unfortunately many Christians in their zeal to >do just this go so far as to employ violence and repression to meet these >ends... And the dumb thing is that violence and repression don't convince anybody of anything. Did you ever notice that jesus Christ was peaceful? >>So: what about the apparent intolerance shown by God in the Old Testament? > >Yes, what of it? For instance how would you like to have been a farmer in >Caanan around 1200 BCE? Minding your own business when suddenly here comes >Joshua down from the hills with his band of thugs, kicking ass and taking >names for no other apparent reason then they believed their god said this >land was theirs. Me thinks they would not be too concerned with your >dictionary defintion of 'tollerance'... If I remember right, the Jews had occupied that land years before they were taken captive by the Egyptians. What I'm saying is that it was _their_ land. And, I'm sure the Canaanites weren't about to give it back. The battles against other nations such as Philistia were also generally after the other nations had invaded Israel. It is not 'intolerant' to defend your land against invading armies. >Jeff Lindborg >Meek agnostic. -Logan -- =----------------Logan-Shaw---(lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)----------------= "A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right...You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are sleeping" - C. S. Lewis, _Mere_Christianity_