Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!wuarchive!rex!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mib@geech.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Imposing Christian morality on nonbelievers Message-ID: Date: 14 Feb 91 12:03:15 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Free Software Foundation, Cambridge, MA Lines: 129 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article abvax!iccgcc.DNET!benning@uunet.uu.net writes: Doug. Perhaps this is a result of being forced to swallow the "new- morality" of this present generation, which is: - God doesn't exist - If God doesn't exist, man can define what is right and wrong. - If someone says what you do is wrong, fund a lobby to put into law what you do.It is a "personal choice" and part of my freedom of expression as an American. - If it feels good then do it. An example: A group from the gay community marched on Washington and had many speakers. One speaker called for an end to sodomy laws. He said what two consulting adults do in private can NOT be legislated. "We are not harming anyone with our actions..." went the claim. I grew up in an environment which did great harm to me, simply because I am gay. That same environment has hurt thousands of others, and drives people away from Christ even today. If the issue is "who is hurting who" (which I don't think it is), then please consider that I and my brothers and sisters have been immeasurably hurt, by an environment which claims to represent God's love to the world. Okay. Maybe he is right. Then the next speaker gets up and demands more federal money for AIDS research to save the lives of those dying of this illness. Indeed. A Christian response is to help those who are suffering regardless of why they suffer. Thumbs up for that speaker. Hey wait. I though what two (or more) adults did in private wasn't going to effect me. Now they want more money (which I agree the money is needed) to cure an illness spread through the intimacy of these individuals while in the privacy of there own home. Sounds like wanting to eat the cake and have it also. That federal money comes from you and me. So if more is needed for AIDS research, we help pay for it. What two people do in private has nothing to do with AIDS. Gay sex certainly doesn't cause AIDS; and it only spreads it if people are promiscuous and/or unsafe. This implies that the best response is to spread information about safer sex practices. As OFM pointed out, it also indicates that gay people should be encouraged to enter long-term committed relationships. It also implies that we should encourage women to have sex exclusively with other women, because lesbian sex (promiscuous or not) is by its very nature far less susceptible to disease spread than straight or gay male sex. An example: I Tell my children that the Bible TEACHES that homosexuality is sin. And those who claim to be, are no different than adulterers or one who sleeps with their sister. It is rebelion against God and through Jesus bringing you new life through faith, you can overcome the sin, and live a "normal" life of "normal" God given relations with the opposite sex. And just this has damaged, and continues to damage, thousands of people daily. Day in, and day out, year in, and year out, this idea is thrust forth, masquerading as love, and asking me and my sisters and brothers to hate ourselves. We've discussed on this newsgroup before whether the Bible does teach that, and I don't want to do so again. Suffice it to say that I am damaged, and by this idea, and by those who promulgate it. THEN, Television tells my children dad is an old fashion dope. The Schools WANT TO open a gay-awareness SUPPORT OFFICE TO TELL school age boys that it is okay AND NORMAL to want sex with the quarterback. Dad gets hit with a civil right law suit and is forced to work the AIDS floor at the local hospital because the Judge thinks it will help Dad respect other people more than he did before. Is that what really happens? Television, aside from a few isolated lights, is certainly not supportive of gay people. What that school office is doing is teaching those kids that they are loved, that they are not alone, and that they should not hate themselves. What you are trying to teach them is that love is conditional upon sexual preference, that they are alone and without peers, and that they should hate themselves. While your love may indeed be so conditional, God's is not. No. I think what you see as just a reaction of having Imorality shoved down the throats of Christians, through TV, movies, Schools, public figures (even elected representatives) who have attacked the moral characters of believers. What I do does not effect your "moral character". If the Reformers were right, we have no moral character at all, but rather an automatic opposition to God and God's will. To claim that only straight people can be acceptable to God is remarkably similar to claiming that only those who are circumcised can be acceptable to God. The OT certainly is filled with statements about "the uncircumcised", and there is the overall conception that the uncircumcised are not acceptable to God. Paul was marking a serious change by saying that circumcision, a fundamental part of morality for the Jew, was not important. Granted, If we did it right, we would do it through the power of God as the first believers did. But Lord help us, we do what we can. In America I would say there is freedom of religion, but don't practice it outside of your home. It has been made illegal (in my opinion). Not at all. Rather, it is illegal to impose religion on those who don't want it. And labelling evolution or gay rights as a religion is obscurantism, pure and simple, and conducive only to still more hate. Perhaps it is a form of making rules. But when laws are passed against you, this might seem the mose proper way to protect what you regard as precious. Mixed with faith and trust, this could be a credible reaction. Though I know the Lord forbids murder, I often wonder what I would do if my childrens lives were threatened. Would I attempt to free them through any means (violence, killing the attacker???) or would I trust them to the Lord through faith. Many times GOD requires faith and trust TO BE ACCOMPANIED with action. Tell me, how on earth does my right to have sex consitute a law passed against you? On the other hand, a law prohibiting me from having sex *is* a law against me. I have been hurt too much to be told that my desire for simple civil rights is damaging to you. Many said the same thing to civil rights leaders in the sixties, and have rightly been denounced as promulgators of hate, no different from the hate forced daily upon gay people in the name of Christ. The church which fosters such ideas is corrupt and morally bankrupt, and in the words of my pastor, I consider myself a walking miracle for having endured it thus far. -mib