Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!rex!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Does JUSTIFICATION = SALVATION ? Message-ID: Date: 14 Feb 91 12:11:24 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh. Lines: 71 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: > What I am wondering is this. Perhaps the arguments that apply to > "once saved always saved" apply to Justification. But if Justification > does not necessarily == Salvation then perhaps it is not fair to say that > being Justified == Salvation == 'once saved always saved' ? [To those who have been in discussions concerning "faith vs. works" which I fueled, I apologize for not responding but I have been on a happy leave of absence :-) ] Hi Dave! I honestly believe Romans Chapter 8 answers this question. I truly believe that it was Paul's intent to teach the eternal security of the believer. By that I mean that I don't think that eternal security is a by-product of Chapter 8 but a *theme*. It is salvation in view: ROM 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ROM 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. ROM 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And assurance of that eternal salvation the thrust: ROM 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [Note the word "all"] But here is the main passage I think answers the question you posed: ROM 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Notice God is the doer in these passages and all of these verbs are in the past tense. The verbs follow in this order: predestinated --> called --> justified --> glorified As we travel from one verb to the next, this passage makes it clear that God doesn't lose any of His children along the way. Read Romans 8:30 again to see what I mean. What shall we conclude then? Well, if ALL those he justified, he also glorified, what does it mean to be glorified? Is this salvation? I think so. Paul just finished saying: ROM 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also GLORIFIED together. And of course Paul drives home his theme of the eternal security of the Christian with his crescendo... ROM 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? ROM 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ROM 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, ROM 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I've heard it said that the list doesn't include "yourself" therefore you can separate yourself from the love of God. I don't believe that for two reasons. (1) The list includes "nor any other creature" of which I am one (2) Romans 8:30, I Thess 5:23-24, Jude 24, Eph 1:13-14, Col 1:6, 2Cor 1:21-22, John 5:24, Jude 1, Heb 12:14, Eph 4:30, 1Pet 1:3-5 (I'm not big on proof texting without comment but these references were included for completeness. Forgive me :-) God bless you brother, -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403