Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!vela!hastoerm
From: hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Lemmings
Keywords: Lemmings, psygnosis, hard disc installable games
Message-ID: <5259@vela.acs.oakland.edu>
Date: 25 Feb 91 16:44:22 GMT
References: <2370@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk>
Reply-To: hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland)
Organization: Evil Young Mutants For A Better Tomorrow.
Lines: 196

In article <2370@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes:
}--
}Hello,
}
} Here is a message from Dave Jones, author of Amiga Lemmings, he has no
}direct usenet access but can read from the net. So I'm posting this on
}his behalf, any comments or mail will be forwarded to him.
}
}Russell
}
}----------------------------------------------------------

First, let me just say that it's nice to hear from the author of Amiga
Lemmings. It's nice to know someone is listening even if it doesn't
change anything right away.

}
}I have been reading the Lemmings talk with interest and I would like
}to offer my opinions. These are the opinions of DMA Design, & not
}Psygnosis. Remember we are developers, not publishers.
}Branding a game because it is PUBLISHED by a particular company, is
}akin to not buying records pressed by WEA or CBS!, i.e. taking no
}account of the performer. 
}
}First of all the reasons for making lemmings a copy protected disk.
}To most users this is transparent. Copy protection simply requires
}the reading of a single track, only once, as the game is loaded. If
}we did not tell users the disk is protected, and they did not try
}to copy it, there is absolutely no way to tell it is protected.
}The disk routines themselves are fast, reliable, do NOT grind the
}heads etc. We step the heads as quickly as they will go within
}the CBM guidelines. ALL disk loads are buffered to RAM, this means
}after playing the game for a while, very few disk accesses are ever
}required (none with 1 MEG of expansion). Two drives are supported.
}To those people who will NOT buy the game, because they are used to
}other types of protection (I too dislike bad programming that causes
}the heads to step non-stop at slow rates) are simply cutting of their
}noses to spite their face.
}Why not try the game, you will find NO problems with the loading, it
}is quick & quiet. Remember other developers wrote other Psygnosis
}games, we did not write Beast or Awesome.

I have tried the game at a friend's house who bought it because he
doesn't really care either way and I must admit, the protection
routines are some of the best and most transparent I have encountered.


}
}We KNOW it does not stop the pirates. But you think we should give in?
}Just release unprotected disks? Let every Tom, Dick or Harry copy the
}disk with 'diskcopy df0: to df1:'
}We HAVE to stop casual copying. This is the killer. If a young kid buys
}a game and can very simply copy the disk for his friend, then we are
}in big trouble. Protected disks are the only way to stop this. I know
}pirates will always rip the protection out in a day or, but the way
}we look at it is that pirates, and the people they swap with, would
}never buy the games anyway.

I have never said that I am totally against protection. I understand
the reasoning behind it and I have to grudgingly except that this is
an imperfect world. My main objection was lack of HD support. You can
support an HD and still have protection. Manual Keyword lookup is one
way. The Immortal, which was written on the Amiga, supports this
method, and it even lets you play the first level before it kicks in.
It uses several codes looked up by finding a matching picture in the
manual. It only comes up once during the game and is, at worst, a
minor annoyance. (It comes up between first and second levels, or
immediately before restoring a game so as least to disrupt play)
I would even accept a key disk method if it allowed me to put the game
on the HD.

}
}
}HD Installation?
}
}Right, to install on HD requires the operating system to be intact.
}The operating system want 100K of CHIP RAM minimum.
}
}We write our games to utitilise ALL the memory.
}We write our disk routines to be fast.
}
}100K of CHIP is a serious amount of memory to lose. Remember the Amiga
}is heavily dependant on CHIP RAM. Some users have > then 1/2 MEG of
}chip RAM, but they are at the moment a minority. To make the game
}HD installable would require us to use AmigaDOS on floppy. This
}is seriously slower then our routines. We lose about 100K of disk
}space (we squeeze 980K from a disk). This means more comprimises.
}Basically if we make these sacrifices the majority of users (A500
}owners with an extra floppy) lose out, just to please the guys with
}hard drives.
}
}Remember we are in this for a living. In Europe the typical setup
}for 90% of Amiga owners is an A500 + Extra Drive.
}
}We have deadlines to meet, we have other versions to write. To make
}every version use full OS of all the machines we are using will take
}a lot of time. Every owner of every machine wants a game to make use
}of all the hardware they have. Where do we draw the line?
}
}Extra memory? Supported
}Extra drives? Supported
}
}HD installable, do you REALLY need it. You want your HD being filled
}with games? You sit down to play a game when you have time, or are in the
}mood. No doubt some games NEED a HD (Cinemaware for example), but
}Lemmings does not NEED the benefits of an HD. I use Amiga's all the time,
}if I want to play a game I can live with it taking 1 minute to load rather
}than 10 secs. Remember to look at games individually here. Lemmings has
}overcome all the gripes we get (apart from HD) so I dont understand people
}saying they will never buy another game that is protected. 'Protected' is
}far too global a word.

Need? Does anyone really need to play games to begin with? Not really.
No major loss if you don't. It's for the enjoyment that we play,
right? My enjoyment is increased if I can load it in off of my HD at a
faster speed than any floppy routine can hope for. I commend you on
finally realizing that more and more Amiga owners have more than 512K
and one floppy. In many instances that can make up for lack of HD
support. (My BIGGEST gripe is having to swap disks on my 3 Floppy, one
HD system because someone doesn't know how to recognize more than one
floppy at a time.) Your arguments for lack of HD support are valid and
reasonable to me on the grounds of loss of memory and disk space only.
I can see saying "We would have put in HD support, but to squeeze in
the extra levels, we just didn't have the room on one or two (etc)
floppies." I can not agree with "We didn't put it in because we are
such programming studs you don't NEED it." 

}
}  
}After saying all this though I have a proposition. We wrote Lemmings
}in a very modular way  (I take offence to previous comments stating
}programmers who do not use the OS as 'brain dead', these people
}obviously have no idea of constructive criticsm and should should join
}rec.games.IQlessThan5) to the extent that we can have a HD intstallable version
}running in 2 weeks time. I have proposed, Psygnosis have agreed, that
}they will offer this version. It will require a minimum of 1 MEG of memory
}(though only 512K of chip RAM will suffice). IF this version is successful,
}(we should be able to offer an upgrade to users who have already bought the
}game but want a HD version), then maybe Psygnosis will be swayed this way
}for future products. We will probably switch to codeword protection
}for future games (we MUST have some form of protection), and maybe
}offer a 1 Meg HD AmigaDOS version for HD users.

This bit of news makes me very happy indeed! For most folks with HDs,
having at least 1 Meg shouldn't be a problem. I don't know of too many
people with Amigas and Hard Drives that don't also have at least an
extra 512K of RAM. In my user's group the order of buying seems to be:
Amiga, Extra 512K RAM (if it was a A500C and needs it), hard drive.

I would like to point out, that at least here in the states, there are
THREE models of the A500. The A500C which is sold through mass
merchandisers like JC Penny, etc. The A500P which is sold through
Dealers only and has 1 MEG RAM standard and the A500S (starter) which
is still a JC Penny sold machine and still 512K. My user's group
suggests to anyone who asks us to purchase their machines from dealers
over Mass Merchandisers only because they won't get upset with you if
you come back looking for help and bought it from the dealer to begin
with. (I know one dealer in Michigan that refuses to help anyone who
bought a machine from a Mass Merchandiser. Can't blame them) The A500P
means the number of A500 owners with at least 1 Meg will be growing
and the path to owning an HD will be cut short one step.

}
}We will never compromise on a game for the sake of HD users. The base
}machine we aim for will always be a 512K Amiga, of which we will use
}ALL the memory, plus our own disk routines for speed. This means more
}to the 90% of people that buy the games. As the times change, and the
}hardware changes, so will the way we write the games. 

Understandable, but I still reserve right not to buy software that
doesn't support the features I want irregardless of how "great" it may
happen to be.

} 
}
}Lemmings is a fun game. I challenge anyone who buys it to point out
}any flaws or gripes that has put them off other games.
}
}Dave Jones
}DMA Design
}

Lemmings is indeed fun. Please send me info on when and where I may
purchase a copy of the HD installable version of Lemmings. I will buy
it if it does indeed come out as stated.

To the others involved I say here's our chance to try and show our
support for folks who support our machines the way we'd like them to.
Let's prove we're serious by holding up our end of the bargain.

					--Moriland

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