Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!tale
From: tale@rpi.edu (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: news.software.b
Subject: Re: Unsubscribed newsgroups in C News log
Message-ID: <%&}&J^&@rpi.edu>
Date: 24 Feb 91 23:26:19 GMT
References: <1991Feb20.024549.8050@uai.com>
	<1991Feb20.063914.9994@zoo.toronto.edu>
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Computer Science, Troy NY
Lines: 204
Nntp-Posting-Host: 128.213.1.1

[[ The bulk of this article is made up by the alt mess, especially
   at the end, but it isn't really about alt. ]]

In <1991Feb20.063914.9994@zoo.toronto.edu> geoff@zoo.toronto.edu
(Geoffrey Collyer) writes:

   Articles that you have clearly asked to be rejected are just dropped;
   articles are junked only when there is doubt (roughly, when your
   subscription list permits at least one group in an article yet none of
   these groups appear in active, which probably means that the newgroup
   for the valid group(s) hasn't arrived yet).

The "which probably means that the newgroup for the valid group hasn't
arrived yet" made me very curious, so I went and did an analysis of
everything I've junked since early November 1990.  The statement appears
to be very false, at least in the case of my site.  My reasons for saying
so appear after some more commentary.

In numerous alt group cases, I did in fact receive a newgroup of some sort
before subsequent junking of articles for it.  I often even had ample time
to add the group if it was my wont.  For many of the articles that have
passed through here, I dislike what having !rpi! in the path implies about
my own acceptance of the group as valid, _especially_ for alt groups.
Sometimes, though, it is quite useful.  I could not otherwise really be
evaluating the traffic of a questionable alt group without this policy of
junked article transmission.  For the analysis though I consider the whole
alt group question separate from looking at the other groups of hierarchies,
namely other regionals/alternative groups and the mainstream USENET.

This whole thing leads to propagation of groups (not just their articles)
by insipient seepage in all hierarchies.  Not all of my junked articles
for the novell group, for example, were from the gateway and there has not
even been an erroneous escaped global newgroup for it.  The problem is
aggravated by sites which still automatically created a new group each time
it gets one it never heard of before --- a practise the main Unix systems
ditched very long ago.

A summary, where the first number in the ratio indicates reception of
something I consider bogus and the second is something valid:

        articles        groups                 articles        groups
ba        11:0           4:0           comp     145:3           26:3
bionet     3:0           2:0           misc      12:0            6:0
ca         1:0           1:0           rec       29:14           7:6
can        1:0           1:0           sci        5:2            3:1
gnu        2:1           2:1           soc        6:0            4:0
ny         2:2           1:1           talk       7:0            1:0
trial      0:5           0:1                   =========       =======
         ======        ======                   204:19          47:10
          20:8          11:3

alt      158:245        47:19

In the accounting which follows, here is how I approached it:

Ignore groups with character garbage {eg, ` and '} in name (9 total).
Ignore totally screwed up Newsgroups lines that broke the simple awk script.
Ignore groups in hierarchies I do not get (26 total). Personal favourites:
        oh.my.god!theres.a.test.group.in.the.followup! (1)
        local.test (1)
  These contribute to the statistical inaccuracy of the rest of this
  analysis, as most of them look like they are probably valid groups
  in the regional hierarcy --- this indicates that the propagation and
  subsequent junking came from cross-posting into a hierarchy I do
  get, but misspelling the group name.  I should change the format of
  the report generator to just dump the whole Newsgroups: line rather
  than split it.  
Try to give some groups the benefit of the doubt; even if no newgroup was
  issued before the junkings, or if, in the case of alt, it is in Spaf's
  list despite my not carrying it.  For other alt groups this generally
  means that I was watching the traffic of an alt group which was not
  created with a reasonable newgroup, or one that I had reservations about
  for some reason.

The numbers are how many I junked.  ()s indicate bogus articles, []s
indicate valid articles (perhaps in retrospect), {}s indicate not valid
here but in Spaf's list.  Followed by x means I started blocking the
transmission of the group, while = means I started refiling, and
continued forwarding with the original header intact, the group.

ba (11 bogus):  ba.forsale (3=), ba.misc.forsale (2=), ba.wanted (5=),
                ba.wanted.housing (1)

bionet (3 bogus):  bionet.molbio.pir (2), bionet.software.pc (1)

ca (1 bogus):  ca.wnated (1)

can (1 bogus):  can.usergroup (1)

gnu (2 bogus, 1 valid):  gnu.gdb (1), gnu.utils (1);
                         gnu.emacs.vm.info [1]

ny (2 bogus, 2 valid*):  ny.events (2); ny.forsale [2]
  * ny.forsale was only deemed valid in subsequent debate and _then_ two
    newgroups went out for it.  None had been made prior to these junkings.

trial (5 valid):  trial.soc.culture.italian (5)

comp (145 bogus, 3 valid):  comp.arch.parallel-sym (1),
     comp.dcom.lans.novell (102*), comp.forsale (2),
     comp.forsale.computers (1), comp.graphics.pixutils (1),
     comp.ibm.binaries.d (2), comp.mac.sys.programmer (1), comp.mail (1=),
     comp.misc.admin (1), comp.neural-nets (1), comp.security (1),
     comp.source.wanted (1), comp.sources.ibm.pc.d (1),
     comp.sys.amiga.datacom (1), comp.sys.amiga.software.pirate (1),
     comp.sys.amiga.unix (1), comp.sys.arm (2), comp.sys.ibm.pc.net (1),
     comp.sys.ibm.pc.software (2), comp.sys.intergraph (4),
     comp.sys.mac.app (1), comp.tex.text (1), comp.unix.appleIIgs (6),
     comp.unix.appleiigs (4), comp.unix.shells (1), comp.windows.x.openlook (4)
     comp.sys.3b1 [1], comp.sys.amiga.graphics [1], comp.sys.amiga.misc [1]
   * Even when you take out 102 for the novell bogosity it still leaves 43:3

misc (12 bogus):  misc.computers.forsale (1), misc.consumer.house (1),
     misc.forsale.edu (1), misc.forsale.wanted (2), misc.jobs.offerred (3),
     misc.sheep (4)

rec (29 bogus, 14 valid):  rec.arts.tv.bbc (1), rec.auto (1), rec.moto (1),
    rec.music (2), rec.pets.dog (2), rec.sport.midget.tossing (14),
    rec.sport.snowboarding (8); rec.audio.car [1], rec.games.pinball [3],
    rec.music.video [6*], rec.radio.amateur.policy [1], rec.radio.swap [1],
    rec.sport.football.pro [2]
  * I am not sure which others this applies to, but I know that in the
    case of rec.music.video (and others) the articles appeared because
    an admin jumped the gun and added the group locally well before a
    netwide newgroup went out (was even scheduled to appear) for it.

sci (5 bogus, 2 valid): sci (3), sci.philosophy.tech_sci.skeptic (1),
    sci.sceptic (1), sci.engr.chem [2]

soc (6 bogus): soc.culture.indianhelp (1), soc.culture.italian (1),
    soc.culture.uk (1), soc.gender-issues (3)

talk (7 bogus): talk.bizarre.rabbit (7)

alt (158 bogus, 245 valid):
    alt (4), alt.alt (4), alt.bicycles (3), alt.bitch.pork (1x)
    alt.boned (1), alt.books (1), alt.borg.wesley.now (2),
    alt.cult.movies (1), alt.cybertoon (3), alt.desert-sto (1),
    alt.desert.storm.its.not.scud.its.al-hussein.dammit (6x),
    alt.desert.toppings (19x), alt.deset-storm (1), alt.dice-man (1),
    alt.ernie-pook (2), alt.fan.BIFF (1), alt.fan.jim_whitehead (1),
    alt.fax.bondage (1), alt.finals.suicide (4),
    alt.flame.those.nasty.little.hangnails-ouch (7), alt.forsale (1),
    alt.fusion (3), alt.graffiti (3=***), alt.graphics (1),
    alt.great.ass.paulina (9x), alt.great.ass.wheaton (2x),
    alt.hash.house.harriers (2), alt.iraqi.dictator.bomb.bomb.bomb (2x),
    alt.junk (5), alt.minutes.lame (1), alt.national.enquirer (9x),
    alt.nodies (12x), alt.personal (1), alt.rock-n-rollup (1),
    alt.rumors (1), alt.sca (3*** ***), alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat (4x),
    alt.sex.homosexual (2), alt.sex.sonja (8), alt.sexy.bald.captains (1x),
    alt.skiing (1), alt.stupid.putzkutz.putz (7x),
    alt.suicide.finals (2), alt.tv.tinytoon (1), alt.unix.wizards (9x**** ***),
    alt.vehicles (1), alt.wee.willie.wisner (2);
    alt.bbs.internet [2], alt.bbs.lists [20], alt.bbs.lists.d [5],
    alt.binaries.multimedia [1], alt.birthright {8=},
    alt.california [12*], alt.cd-rom [1], alt.comp.compression [9**],
    alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo [6], alt.drugs.usenet {1x}, alt.forgery {24x},
    alt.fractals.pictures {29x}, alt.lang.teco [8], alt.magic [10],
    alt.party [41****], alt.romance.chat [35** ***], alt.sex.pictures.d [1x],
    alt.sport.bungee [20], alt.surfing [12]

 alt.birthright was a mess.  Steve Gallacci fans thought it was for
 them, but it was an abandoned hulk left behind by Kent Paul Dolan &
 crew, meant for discussion of the Birthright political party.  Spaf
 added it back on his list in the most recent round describing its
 _intent_, but not its _traffic_.  I am refiling it (and alt.fan.albedo)
 to alt.fan.furry to agree with the traffic in it.  I'm screwed if its
 traffic does indeed start to be what it was originally.

 * alt.california was a valid group.  Many moons ago it was removed after
 requests from some Californians (I recall, but have no records) and
 subsequent discussion in alt.config.  Some people never removed it,
 it got a dabble of traffic recently, and made it back on Spaf's list.
 Since adding it again, I have received _two_ articles for it.

 ** The person who newgrouped alt.comp.compression rmgrouped it within
 hours of his first message.  We were all hoping for the comp.compression
 just to finish naturally and then have a good mainstream group for this.
 But no, admins blew off the rmgroup request from the newgrouper.  Bleah.

 *** Another mess.  Several months ago, I ignored the bogus newgroup and
 junked articles for alt.graffiti.  I think I eventually x'ed it.  Then it
 showed up in Spaf's list, so I gave it new life.  Then it left Spaf's list,
 traffic was dead, so I removed it.  Then an rmgroup came from Wisner in
 response to a run-away script at accuvax.  Then Becker newgrouped it without
 comment and few more articles followed.  Now I just refile the traffic to
 rec.humor where it fits fine. 

 **** I ignored the bogus newgroup for alt.party but watched the traffic
 in junk move toward good discussion about how to pick themes for parties,
 how to throw a good party, &c.  So I added it.  Only 43 articles since.

 ** *** I loathe this group.  I am not completely sure why I carry
 alt.romance.chat.  Over 2000 articles in a week.

 *** *** alt.sca was a valid group, but rec.org.sca was added.  Several
 months later, I stopped refiling it.

 **** *** Mentioned in alt.config, validly newgrouped by rough alt.config
 criteria but not added by me, rmgrouped by the person who newgrouped it.
 I decided to x it rather than = it after noting that not one of the nine
 articles I junked had any wizardly content.
--
    (setq mail '("tale@rpi.edu" "uupsi!rpi!tale" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))