Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-beacon!ora!ambar From: jdravk@speech2.cs.cmu.edu (Jeanette Dravk) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Isn't it time to start treating men like human beings? Message-ID: <1991Mar5.120705.8052@ora.com> Date: 5 Mar 91 12:07:05 GMT References: <513Go7_c@cs.psu.edu> <1991Feb8.165736.24726@aero.org> Sender: ambar@ora.com (Jean Marie Diaz) Organization: Barbie's Dream Dungeon Lines: 142 Approved: ambar@ora.com In article sobleski@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Mark Sobolewski) writes: >jdravk@speech2.cs.cmu.edu (Jeanette Dravk) writes: >>I guess this is where I disagree with you. I don't think *ANY* of our >>forparents "selflessly contributed and suffered" to tell you truth. If they >>did, then I think they were brain-dead and not worth bothering much about. > Well... Many of the men (and some women) who died for our country >would disagree with you there. _Someone_ has to do it. Don't take >this cynicism too far. I think I'll have to argue against that. If someone believes they are doing the right thing, then they're doing it for the purely selfish reason of their own pride, sense of self. My argument is that the self is so tied up in any decision that there is no such thing as a "selfless" act. I'd also argue that people who decide to make a "selfless"/selfish act are consenting to their suffering -- which is an entirely different kind of suffering than that which is forced upon someone. > I couldn't agree more. The only problem is that other people use >standards to judge you. It's one of feminism's goals (isn't it?) To tell you the truth I don't know. I read feminist literature a bit, but I don't care to apply such an ambiguous label to myself. I don't consider myself a feminist, so I can't be the person to say what is or isn't a feminist goal. >to further appreciation of women and their interests in our >society and judge people based on their ability rather than their >gender? If this is to be accomplished, _some_ amount of cooperation >is warrented. However I do have my own opinions on what could be done, and one of them is a belief that there are sexual *classes* which exist as further striations of our society. Few people openly recognize this fact or that so much of our society not only condones it, but *relies* on it. Anyhoo, let people judge me. They're free to think whatever they like of me and I expect the same courtesy. Of course, if I don't like their opinion I may try to change it. It seems ludicrous to not expect people to be judgemental. What else could they possibly be and still call themselves individuals? And yes, getting people to base their judgements on ability rather than gender is an excellent start. But for me, the whole dependence on sexual social classes will have to go; which is why (IMO) many fear feminism and other related movements threaten society .... because they do! And quite a lot of men are smart enough to know that the removal of sexual classes could be beneficial for them too! It's just a shame more men and women don't work together, but there's a lot of social inertia ... no ... active enforcement of the status quo ... keeping them that way. > That isn't what I meant. The statement "We're all free to make choices >to go along..." is not applied equally to men and women. Men are >still expected to either take abuse due to their gender or shut up >in many cases. [...] > It's not just a matter of "fairness" towards men, but giving >men a stake in it would help grease things a little. I think that's a wonderful idea, but in "fairness" I should point out that changes for women are happening only very slowly and very painfully .... I've seen very little in the patriarchal system that exists today that gives me any kind of "stake" in it. That's why I want to change it. It's also, I think, why a lot of feminists/women feel they have to argue so strongly for _women's stake_ ... because men have so much of a stake in what already exists that there's not a whole lot they could offer men instead ... unless of course men already buy the women's movement as a given. But that's hard. So again, it sounds like a wonderful idea but I also know that so many women friends of mine are just barely (if at all) managing to keep the pressure on for their own rights that they couldn't possibly have the energy to fight for men's rights too. Ultimately, men are going to have to have form their own movement and support a general awareness of their problems. I don't believe it's something that can just join up with the feminist movement and expect to be handed their own equal place in it. Not yet anyway. However I still take issue with your assumption that all women expect men to take abuse due to their gender. I don't for one, and I find it just as annoying to be automatically categorized that way as you do. >>Lighten up! The rest of us enlightened ones are doing just fine, >>and don't really appreciate being lumped in with the "everyone -- >>what jerks! ugh" scene. > "Everyone" was said in terms of the majority of "educated" people >I've come across. Your experiences may differ. Yes, that is probably true. But regardless, "everyone" does mean everyone -- no exclusions. To deny that there are exceptions, that in fact everyone does *not* act that way is to belittle the accomplishments of some people who have worked and are working very hard to change the majority's view. It's a self-defeating and frustating terminology to use and one that I think causes more debates and hostility than any other between people who might otherwise agree completely. > You bet. As I said, this was in response to something else. >Just because I discuss a subject and respect it, doesn't mean I'm >overglorifying it. You seem to have a _very_ pragmatic view of >life. Wonderful. But I feel that some awareness of what goes >on in our society as well as consideration for other people's >needs is necessary for a healthy working relationship with people. >I don't dwell on things, but I do consider them. You want the >right to go on with your life and accomplish what you want >free of limitations on you based on your gender. Right? >Us men would like the same as well. That's all I'm saying. Pragmatic is the only way I've found that offers *any* hope of realistic satisfaction within my lifetime. Unlike you, apparently, I've given up on any hope that anyone else will give a damn about whether I'm being treated the way I feel I deserve or not. Anyhoo, good luck. j- Maybe we can all wear buttons to identify ourselves, something like this: __ ___ / \ / \ | | \ / --- | _____ | -- #*#*#*#*#*# Transient Creature of the Wide, Wild World #*#*#*#*#*#*#* "Time is not linear to me, it is a nebulous web of existential freedom."