Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jarthur!ucivax!gateway From: jdravk@speech2.cs.cmu.edu (Jeanette Dravk) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: AA and the roles of men/women in society. Message-ID: <9102282247.AA27304@rutgers.edu> Date: 5 Mar 91 18:01:19 GMT References: Organization: Barbie's Dream Dungeon Lines: 180 Approved: tittle@ics.uci.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: blanche.ics.uci.edu In article sobleski@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Mark Sobolewski) writes: >That's my first objection, Audrey. "women and minorities" is an >inexact, and IMO INAPPROPRIATE term. Just as I'm crossposting this to >several groups, AA seeks to apply the same solutions to several >different problems. The injustices that have occurred to the Native >American and to the black people and what should be done to compensate >and help them should not be cheapened by bringing women's concerns and >the welfare of people who just arrived in this country who are >therefore "minorities" into the same picture. Cheapened? Excuse me? I didn't know we were trying to shove women under the carpet. >Now, with respect to _women_ and _only_ women and AA, let me say that >women are different than the other named cases in the sense that they >can, and do, marry into wealth. Excuse me again, but exactly HOW is the fact that most women earn less than men (so therefore wives earn less than husbands) tie in with AA? And what about all those men who marry for wealth? >And therein lies the problem: Since feminism could have been something >to free men and women from the constraints and conflict of gender >roles, it's a shame that it only turned out to improve women's >conditions in some ways while causing stress in our society as men are >forced between old-gender roles and modern considerations. So all of us women ought to go home right now and go back to our kitchens? Thanks for pointing out the stress in our society. Have you considered the fact that the women's movement(s) were caused by the stress that men were imposing on women by allowing them more access to education while attempting to keep them at home and out of the work force? >If a woman wants a man to make more than her, he now has to >work harder than before women's liberation "freed us" for less money. Why in the world would a woman *want* a man to make more than her? I sure don't!!! >It's ironic that women are hurt indirectly as well when they complain >that the men they meet are either "workaholics" or not >"self-confident" enough. AA causes men and women to not be happy to >make at least average. I thought you said the confusion and insecurity came from the women's movements?! >Now everyone has to make "more than average" to >survive. Of course, not everyone can make more than average, by >definition, so men become slaves and women become more competitive for >the remaining men at the top. Why are men slaves for something that has always been true (i.e. by definition everyone cannot make more than average). Or are you implying that men have always been slaves? And why the heck are women more competitive for men at the top? And what are men competing for? Funny me, I thought both men and women were looking for self-confident, attractive people. >account. If we are to have sexual equality or at least maximum sexual >freedom, we have to realize that neither side should be a slave and >anyone asking that is wrong. Feminism has succeeded on one side, but >not on the other. (Nor should it alone, I guess) But I think >feminism's best bet would be to actively support the growth of the >men's rights movement. Only until men are free, can women ever say >they are because we're both in it together. Eventually, yes, the women's and the men's movements will have to work together but what makes you think that can happen now? (By the way, feminism != women's movement ... thank you.) Working towards social change is HARD. Look how long it took for women to get where they are now. Years! Almost a century of hard, hard work! Sure, some women see it as the golden goose, but you can't tell me they're like that because their women. There are people like that everywhere. But right now, I really don't see how the women's and the men's movements can realistically expect to work together. There are too few people spread far too thinly as it is. How do you expect them to add even *more* to their agendas? Where will they find the time? And what is it that they can do for men that men can't seem to do for themselves? It's not that I have anything against men or regard myself as more "privileged" than men, but rather that I can't understand why you and other men feel that the only way towards social progress is to attempt to appropriate the women's movement for yourself? To my mind, the women's movement (with all of its pitfalls and drawbacks) is quite right to continue to concentrate on women. No-one else does or will as history has shown. And yes, I know that sounds harsh and cynical and pragmatic, and it is. That's the way life works. >This reminds me of what happened last night (and many other nights) >and the true tragedy of feminism and what it could have done if they >had worked with men, rather than often against them. I could put ten different words (most blaming men instead of feminism) in this sentence and they'd all have about as much validity. WHAT'S THE POINT??? If you want something ... go get it! *That* is what the women's movement has assumed and done. Why can't you do it? Why do you have to sit around and make absurd comments like : >Since men are considered so expendable, but no woman wants to date a >guy who openly feels that way, everyone is miserable. It's ironic >that women are suffering from their own elitism. ... when you could go out and do something! What are you waiting for? The "Feminist Seal of Approval"? >That's ok, though, >men have been suffering under their own for long before that. :-) Isn't it nice how all those other categories about Amerindians, and immigrants and Afro-Americans have now been completely dominated and subjected to the gender categories? What happened to all the other suffering? >In any case, I no longer play traditional games. "Flirting" to me is >seen as all it is: friendliness. But I don't play games any more. I >just can't get rid of the feeling of being sold out. Welcome to the real world. Look around you sometime. You'll find both men and women who feel the same way. >have one. Continuing ever more squeezing of men (which is all >feminism has left in terms of agenda) just seems to me to not be as >constructive a goal as setting up men's rights. Especially >considering the fact that people may just get plain sick of the >"matriarchal" society and go back to being old-fashioned. If men had >a stake in this, I'm sure feminists would get a lot more respect from >us. But as it is, it's getting a little tiring always being put >second. So you're saying that our governmental system today is feminist? More than feminist, the majority of congresspeople are women, and that our society is "matriarchal"??? I seriously suggest you go back and take a look at that. Men *do* have a stake in society. They always have and they always will. And no, this is *not* a matriarchal society. If this was a matriarchal society, why is it that *none* of my (all male!) mechanics EVER believed me when I told them what I thought was wrong with my car (hint: I was usually right too.) Why is it that every study I've ever seen says males get most of the attention in the school system? Why is it that I can't even wear a friggin' pair of *shorts* without getting whistles and lewd, deprecating comments by the construction workers (male)? Why is it that only 29% of all roles cast in Hollywood go to female actresses? Why why why why? I'm afraid that almost everything I see is contradictory to what you're saying. I can't believe what you have to say if I see so many contradictions to it every day of my life with my own eyes. Not that I think you're compeletely wrong. It's just there's more than just one side of the story to tell and if you don't start with yourself and your own sympathies how can you demand women to sympathize with yours? I'm sorry, but I feel there's much much more to this thing than just two childish groups of boys and girls standing on opposite sides of a line sticking tongues out at each other or of awful mean predatory women-creatures attacking men's self-esteem, or awful mean predatory men-creatures oppressing innocent women-things. Whoops! There I go getting idealistic again. j- -- #*#*#*#*#*# Transient Creature of the Wide, Wild World #*#*#*#*#*#*#* "Time is not linear to me, it is a nebulous web of existential freedom."