Path: utzoo!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: news@hoss.unl.edu (Network News Administer) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The End of the World!! Message-ID: Date: 6 Mar 91 04:38:56 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln Lines: 76 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) writes: >It was my understanding that the only difference between the books of >the Roman Catholic Bible and the "Protestant Bible" was the elimination >of books from the "Old Testament" which brought the "Protestant Bible" >into line with the Jewish Bible which had solidified *after* the >Christian Bible. (While the Jews had many "books" only certain were >placed in the large composite volume.) Actually, as I recall, seven of the New Testament books were excluded by one or another Reformation leader. The Epistle of James was a particular target, with its emphasis on the importance of works. I may hunt up a complete list of the New Testament books which were attacked. (I've always found the fact that Protestants allowed the Jewish reaction to Christianity to determine the Protestant choice of books for the Old Testament a remarkably strange occurrence.) > As reformers sought to bring the >church back to its roots, the Old Testament was amended, 5 sacraments >were elimimated, (since Jesus never participated in them). etc... Can you explain that a little more clearly for me? It seems like Christ participated in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (he forgave sins a lot, and commissioned his disciples to do so), Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders (commissioning of ministers), baptism (actually, the direct evidence is that His disciples baptized under His supervision, but He certainly directed them to baptize), and the Eucharist. Confirmation and matrimony are separate cases, but both based on His teaching. What's the Protestant understanding of the sacraments? I didn't think they all agreed on the number of sacraments. But there seem to be particular problems with any claim that five sacraments were eliminated because Christ didn't participate in them. Leo Chouinard [There are certainly NT books that some Reformers are more enthusiastic about than others, but I think it's going too far to say that they were excluded. Luther called James a "strawy epistle", but it still appears in the German Bible he translated. I believe it's incorrect to say that other other 5 sacraments were excluded because Christ didn't participate in them. As you point out, in at least some cases he did. It's hard to speak for all Protestants, but generally the definition of a sacrament is that it is a symbolic act which presents the Word in a visible form, which Christ ordained. Christ certainly forgave people. He did lots of other things as well. That doesn't mean that every act in his life turns into a sacrament. Why not foot-washing? Baptism and communion are distinguished as two things that he specifically told the Church to celebrate. They are also distinguished as being primarily symbolic actions. E.g. the Protestant view of marriage is that Jesus certainly endorsed it, and it is a holy thing. However it is primarily itself, not an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. Marriage is just as appropriate for non-Christians, which one would not expect of a Christian sacrament. In fact there's a certain arbitrariness to this distinction, and I believe it was recognized at the time. Luther said at one point that he wasn't so concerned with whether something (I think confession, though I may have the wrong sacrament) was considered a sacrament as whether it was carried out in a Scriptural manner. Part of this is not an issue of theology, but an issue of approach. I've found Greeley's comments on the nature of Catholicism very useful in helping me understand the distinction. Catholicism sees the world sacramentally. It's not just the 7 formal sacraments, but the whole package of saints, Mary, and in fact the role of the Church itself. It's a whole approach, which Charles Williams refers to as the way of affirmation of images (using the term "image" in a very broad sense). Protestants follow the way of rejection of images, seeing no image as sufficient to do justice to God, and emphasizing a direct relationship with God. Both approaches have their dangers, and at times both sides have succumbed to those dangers. --clh]